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and they had weapons to achieve this
only now one suspects that the illegals ARE the weapons and are being used as "gun fodder" , an initiating salvo, if you will
That was not always the case. There were many migrations in the past which happened without the use of violence. Saying this, of course today's world is much more densely populated and more "organized" into countries etc. so people need proper documents to move around.
The point is that these people are in trouble and need to be helped.
Your argument of them staying behind to fight for their land doesn't make much sense to me. It's like telling the Greeks of Asia Minor in 1922 to not migrate to mainland Greece but instead stay behind and face certain death.
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My kids are getting in shit all the time by my wife because they say "open/close the lights" or "open/close the TV", basically translating from Greek to English.
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I have a funny story about the band "Melisses" (bees in English)
We were in Skiathos island 2 years ago with the kids and some friends and we went to one of their famous beaches there (Banana beach) where there's an awesome beach bar right on the beach. So apparently that day the band "Melisses" were coming to play in that beach so the beach was reserved for that event and the lounge chairs were already taken,
So as we parked the cars and started walking towards the beach a guy comes towards us and says something like "don't bother going to the beach, the "Melisses" (bees) are coming today", so my younger son (he was 8 at the time) turns to me and goes "baba let's go to some other beach, this beach is going to be full of bees"
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Firstly, who says that people need to stay put where they were born no matter what?
For millenia people are moving around based on their needs. So if food is depleted in one area, or if the weather conditions change or for whatever other reason people would migrate to different places and different continents since the ancient times.
People in the middle east are dealing with catastrophic events of epic proportions. They're between a rock (crazy dictators, puppet regimes and their protectors etc.) and a hard place (nutcase religious groups etc.). Something has to give. Most of these people have given up hope and they see leaving their ancestral land as their only hope to give themselves and their families a better life and a better future.
I guess you could say that it's questionable whether they can find a better life in Europe in the current situation, but it's damn sure that they'll find a better life that the life they've been living at home during the past years.
Saying this, I totally agree that European countries shouldn't be the only ones to carry this burden, but then Europe is the closest destination for these unfortunate people. They can't possibly fly all the way to Canada or the US, or even Australia.
I think the global community should get together and figure out how they can help, maybe agree on quotas so that each country will receive a number of those poor souls and help them rebuild their lives.
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Connery has always been the best Bond until Daniel Craig came around. Not sure if it's his acting, or it could be the story lines that are great, but all the Daniel Greg Bond movies are great and fun to watch.
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the question is not what others think, the question is, knowing a few more facts now, what do YOU think?
I think that they need to be helped. Europe and the rest of the world need to find a way to help these people out.
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When did xenophobia become democracy?
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Seems that trouble is brewing in Germany - and all over Europe:
Even as an image of a Germany taking great pains to welcome hundreds of thousands of refugees has bolstered the country's image abroad, it has also been accompanied by a wave of hatred that cannot be played down. At the center of this second, disturbing narrative is Patriots against the Islamization of the West, or Pegida, a xenophobic grassroots movement that has manifested itself with demonstrations each Monday mostly in Dresden in the east, but also in other parts of Germany. But Pegida is only one part of a much larger problem... -
Don't believe everything the high closs brochure says. Germany has officialy only 3 mil unemployed but that's a statistical trick. The Germans just created something they call Hartz IV end enrolled their 7.5 mil lonterm unemployed in that. They just don't call them unemployed anymore. They call them "Hartz IV Empfänger" So total number of unemployed in Germany stands somewhere around 11 mil of close to 17%. And there is indeed poverty in Germany. One out of five Germans is affected by it. And remember: Germany is the most successfull economy in Europe!
This is a scary statistic, if true.
I know for a fact that most northern countries, especially the Scandinavians, offer several "support" programs to their people so that unemployment numbers look artificially low.
For example, I know for a fact that in Finland a very small percentage of the population holds full time jobs. Most people work part-time or reduced hours and the government subsidizes pretty much everything for them, from children care to after school activities for the kids etc. I guess the question is for how much longer these governments will have money in the coffins to support their people's lifestyle. The influx of refugees puts a lot of strain to these economies because they usually provide a lot to the newcomers (as opposed to the Balkan and south European countries). I suspect that this is the reason why all those refugees are heading for the northern European countries. Not so much to find work (as work is scarce there too), but so that they'll receive more benefits.
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So why do you think this is happening? Why do you think it's mostly men among the refugees? Is this a cultural/muslim thing? Do you think there's some other reason behind this?
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Also is there really free movement of capital and people, like for example, can unemployed people in a country move to another one to find jobs easily and remain in that country for years?
Yes
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Have you noticed that more than 80% of the refugees are men?
Where do you get these stats from?
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It is different with the US or Canada, because you are talking about the same people in the same country, Americans or Canadians. While in the EU, people are first, for example, Greeks or Spanish before being Europeans. In my opinion, the EU has become too big like an elephant that it is almost impossible to manage. For sure, the EU leadership has always served the interests of the big and rich countries at the expense of the smaller and poorer ones, and that will not improve with time but will just get worse as the disparities become bigger. Who knows if the migrant crisis is not the triggering event that would unglue the artificial bind between EU countries?
And if they let Turkey become an EU member, that would certainly be the end of the EU. For anyone wishing to visit Europe, better hurry because the European cultural landscape is changing very fast with all the migrants already in.
It's not that much different if you think about it. Canada and the US are made up of immigrants from all over the world.
Sure, European countries have richer histories and more intense cultural differences because of constant wars over the past few centuries over their borders, but this has been slowly changing.
Maybe the Balkans are still a boiling pot and there's no way some of those people will live harmoniously together, but in some other parts of Europe the reality is that the borders do not really matter anymore. It may take some time but eventually even the crazies in the Balkans will realize that being enemies with your neighboors doesn't server well anyone.
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Maybe not. More so "exceptionalism". Can't remember which other country thinks they are exceptional too, maybe I read in the news somewhere a few months ago. Maybe India, not sure.
OK, here you are, I found the article. It is India.
http://thediplomat.com/2014/10/narendra-modis-american-exceptionalism/
Don't fool yourself. All countries/ethnic groups think they're exceptional and special. Take the Greeks, the Turks, the Germans, the Jews, the Brits...you name it. Everyone thinks they're the cat's meow.
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That's partially true, but the same way you'd see the same issue with most US states, where some of them operate in a very different manner than others. Yet they all co-exist as United States of America.
The common currency was the first step for the Europeans to tie their economies together. There's still work to be done in this front, it's going to be a few more years before this arrangement works a bit better for everyone. Next step would be the political union. One global European government and several local "state" governments.
In a way most political and financial decisions in Europe are already made at a higher level than that of local governments. This was made abundantly clear during the negotiations for extending the funding of the Greek debt.
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"People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do."
Not sure who said this, but hits the nail on the head
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There's a bigger picture to see here. Europe has to, eventually, start operating as a single entity. It will take time, but it has to happen if Europe wants to be an important player in the world in the future. A fragmented Europe will become an easy target for the Chinese, the Americans and whichever other big population emerging market such as India, Brazil etc.
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Αρχικά στο τραγούδι "Να 'τανε το '21" στη τελευταία στροφή που ο Νταλάρας, στη πιο "διδεδομενη" εκδοχή του τραγουδιού λέει "και να κρατάω τοις νύχτες με τ' άστρα μια ομορφούλα αγκαλιά" έλεγε "Μια Τουρκοπούλα αγκαλιά" και η λογοκρισία επέβαλε την αλλαγή. Μήπως κάποιος έχει την αρχική μορφή το τραγουδιού να το βάλει στο youtube;
Poios to tragoudise prin ton Ntalara?
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There are many beautiful beaches all over Greece:
- Zakynthos has several beautiful sandy beaches. I was there this past summer. Most of them are wonderful.
- Western Crete too. Many nice beaches in the Chania and surrounding area, and also on the west side of the island (the famous Balos, Elafonisi and Falasarna).
- Chalkidiki has also some wonderful beaches, mostly sandy beaches too.
- In Peloponnese you can try the west side, Kyparisia area, and also the famous Simos beach in Elafonisos.
- There are wonderful beaches in all islands too. eyoismos shared one on the Ithaki island but there are amazing beaches in all islands.
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This is one of the most heartfelt songs I've ever heard. Great composition and lyrics, and an absolutely amazing performance by Mariza Koch.
It's about the Turkish invasion in Cyprus (in 1974)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCTwc-7jPL4
Here are the lyrics:
Κάμπος γεμάτος πορτοκάλια, όι όι, μάνα μου!
Που πέρα ως πέρα απλώνετ’ η ελιά
Γύρω χρυσίζουν τ’ ακρογιάλια, όι όι, μάνα μου!
Και σε θαμπώνει, θαμπώνει η αντηλιά
Στον τόπο αυτό όταν θα πάτε, όι όι, μάνα μου!
Σκηνές αν δείτε, αν δείτε στη σειρά
Δε θα `ναι κάμπινγκ για τουρίστες, όι όι, μάνα μου!
Θα `ναι μονάχα, μονάχα προσφυγιά
Παναγιά μου, Παναγιά μου, παρηγόρα την καρδιά μου!
Παναγιά μου, Παναγιά μου, παρηγόρα την καρδιά μου!
Κι αν δείτε ερείπια γκρεμισμένα, όι όι, μάνα μου!
Δε θα `ναι απ’ άλλες, απ’ άλλες εποχές
Από ναπάλμ θα `ναι καμένα, όι όι, μάνα μου!
Θα `ναι τα μύρια χαλάσματα του χτες
Κι αν δείτε γη φρεσκοσκαμμένη, όι όι, μάνα μου!
Δε θα `ναι κάμπος, `ναι κάμπος καρπερός
Σταυροί θα είναι φυτεμένοι, όι όι, μάνα μου!
Που τους σαπίζει, σαπίζει ο καιρός
Παναγιά μου, Παναγιά μου, παρηγόρα την καρδιά μου!
Παναγιά μου, Παναγιά μου, παρηγόρα την καρδιά μου!
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you are missing the point ... the big picture
i mean soooo many abandon their wives and kids behind to deal with the likes of ISIS
thus the massive number of men vs women and children doing the "big crossing"
i mean seriously ... would you do that?
Would you send your wife and kids first to do this trip to the unknown?
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There's a music forum for this...
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we are most definately on the same page
i mean ... "they" , and i am talking about the monstrous numbers, seem to to be prepared to sacrifice their wives and kids to the ravages of the sea, but are not prepared to fight for them on home turf ?
come on !!!
something a lot bigger is afoot
what that is?
your guess is as good as mine
It's not the same. Taking a chance to cross the Aegean (which is really a short boat ride) is not half as risky as compared to staying at home and having to deal with the crazies of ISIS. If those boats used by those smugglers were half decent then crossing from Turkey to Samos or Lesvos should be really really easy.
I've been to both islands and from some areas you can really see that Turkey is really close. In good weather conditions I could easily swim this distance myself, and I'm not an athlete or anything.
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Well put by Speigel.
Your favorite quote or proverb, etc.
in Γενική Συζήτηση
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Or you could also say that time is more valuable than money. You can always work more (or invest more) and make more money, but you cannot get more time.