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I think we're closer than ever to a Grexit at this point. Of course in politics you never say never, as things may change at the very last minute, and despite what many people think this is more of a political than a pure financial issue.

 

I guess there are a few questions that the EU will need to answer. For example, will a default necessarily push Greece out of the Euro? And if Greece does go out of the Euro will this in turn push her out the EU too?

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32332221

 

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Guest PatrickT

I think we finally entered the atmospheric reentry phase. Greece has no heat shield so we just have to wait what makes it down earth.

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Seems that they're finally working towards a solution. Unfortunately this solution is not going to be easy to swallow for Greeks. The average middle-class Greek will carry again most of the weight...

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Guest eyoismos

hardly

 

far too many leacherous blood suckers involved, each wanting their poud of flesh

 

example => http://www.newsit.gr/politikh/kontra-thesmoi-dnt-foroi-protasi-lagarde/412204

 

and after everything is finally settled  ... if ever ... it all has to go through the greek parliament ... the biggest mpourdelo of them all

 

example => http://www.newsit.gr/default.php?pname=Article&art_id=412155&catid=13

 

we still have a long way to go before both greece and lenders take the fucking palouki out of their asses

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Guest PatrickT

No Eyosusmuswhatever.

 

There is nothing the greek parliament must decide anymore. If we decide that it ends, then it ends. And it looks like this decission is finally there. Greece is not worth to waste any time on it. We have more important things to deal with.

 

Greeks believe they can live like parasites forever and take the money from nations like slovenia and estonia. Nations that are poorer and work harder. Greece has no european culture. It is middle eastern and it was a mistake to let it into the EU. Mistakes can be corrected. 

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Guest eyoismos

what constantly amazes me is that this tosser comes and pollutes this very small and limited forum, troll that he is, and my first question is .... whats he trying to prove ?

 

attention whoredom at its height so google can catch him with his looks so the whole world can see how much of a wanker he is?

 

or maybe he is on the payroll of either a turkish of skopian organization to see how much shit he can stir up for propaganda purposes

 

it doesnt make sense otherwise ...especially with his ridiculous propensity to spread bullshit

 

either way ... such a loser

 

loser.jpg

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This is a very interesting article, definitely worth a read:

 

 

Nearly every discussion of the Greek fiasco is based on a morality play. Call it naughty Greece versus Noble Europe. Those troublesome Greeks never belonged in the euro, runs this story. Once inside, they got themselves into a big fat mess – and now it’s up to Europe to sort it all out.

 

61a4e97e-e713-47cc-b9eb-8be3da16d7fb-460
 

Those are the basics all Wise Folk agree on. Then those on the right go on to say feckless must either accept Europe’s deal or get out of the single currency. Or if more liberal, they hem and haw, cough and splutter, before calling for Europe to show a little more charity to its southern basketcase. Whatever their solution, the Wise Folk agree on the problem: it’s not Brussels that’s at fault, it’s Athens. Oh, those turbulent Greeks! That’s the attitude you smell when the IMF's Christine Lagarde decries the Syriza government for not being "adult" enough.  That’s what licenses the German press to portray Greece's finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis, as needing "psychiatric help".

 

There’s just one problem with this story: like most morality tales, it shatters upon contact with hard reality. Athens is merely the worst outbreak of a much bigger disease within the euro project. Because the single currency isn’t working for ordinary Europeans, from the Ruhr valley to Rome.

 

On saying this, I don’t close my eyes to the endemic corruption and tax-dodging in Greece (nor indeed, does the outsiders’ movement Syriza, which came to power campaigning against just these vices). Nor am I about to don Farage-ist chalkstripes. My charge is much simpler: the euro project is not only failing to deliver on the promises of its originators, it’s doing the exact opposite – by eroding the living standards of ordinary Europeans. And as we’ll see, that’s true even for those living in the continent’s number one economy, Germany.

 

First, let’s remind ourselves of the noble pledges made for the euro project. Let’s play the grainy footage of Germany’s Helmut Schmidt and France’s Giscard d’Estaing, as they lay the foundations for Europe’s grand unifier. Most of all, let’s remind ourselves of what the true believers felt. Take this from Oskar Lafontaine, Germany’s minister of finance, on the very eve of the launch of the euro. He talked of “the vision of a united Europe, to be reached through the gradual convergence of living standards, the deepening of democracy, and the flowering of a truly European culture”.

 

We could quote a thousand other such stanzas of euro-poetry, but that single line from Lafontaine shows how far the single-currency project has fallen. Instead of raising living standards across Europe, monetary union is pushing them downwards. Rather than deepening democracy, it is undermining it. As for “a truly European culture”, when German journalists accuse Greek ministers of “psychosis”, that mythic agora of nations is a long way off.

 

 

Of all these three charges, the first is most important – because it explains how the entire union is being undermined. To see what’s happened to the living standards of ordinary Europeans, turn to some extraordinary research published this year by Heiner Flassbeck, former chief economist at the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, and Costas Lapavitsas, an economics professor at Soas University of London turned Syriza MP.

 

In Against the Troika, the German and the Greek publish one chart that explodes the idea that the euro has raised living standards. What they look at is unit labour costs – how much you need to pay staff to make one unit of output: a widget, say, or a bit of software. And they map labour costs across the eurozone from 1999 to 2013. What they find is that German workers have barely seen wages rise for the 14-year stretch. In the short life of the euro, working Germans have fared worse than the French, Austrians, Italians and many across southern Europe.

 

Yes, we’re talking about the same Germany: the mightiest economy on the continent, the one even David Cameron regards with envy. Yet the people working there and making the country more prosperous have seen barely any reward for their efforts. And this is the model for a continent.

 

 
Perhaps you have an image of Deutschland as being a nation of highly skilled, highly rewarded workers in gleaming factories. That workforce and its unions still exist – but it’s shrinking fast. What’s replacing it, according to Germany’s leading expert on inequality, Gerhard Bosch, are crap jobs. The low-wage workforce has shot up and is now almost at US levels, he reckons.
 

 

Don’t blame this on the euro, but on the slow decline of German unions, and the trend of business towards outsourcing to cheaper eastern Europe. What the single currency has done is make Germany’s low-wage problems the ruin of an entire continent.

 

Workers in France, Italy, Spain and the rest of the eurozone are now being undercut by the epic wage freeze going on in the giant country in the middle. Flassbeck and Lapavitsas describe this as Germany’s “beggar thy neighbour” policy – “but only after beggaring its own people”.

 

In the last century, the other countries in the eurozone could have become more competitive by devaluing their national currencies – just as the UK has done since the banking meltdown. But now they’re all part of the same club, the only post-crash solution has been to pay workers less.

 

9a91a2ac-fa42-4ea6-ac5e-c6810325ecfe-460
 

That is expressly what the European commission, the European Central Bank and the IMF are telling Greece: make workers redundant, pay those still in a job much less, and slash pensions for the elderly. But it’s not just in Greece. Nearly every meeting of the Wise Folk in Brussels and Strasbourg comes up with the same communique for “reform” of the labour market and social-security entitlements across the continent: a not-so-coded call for attacking ordinary people’s living standards. This is what the noble European project is turning into: a grim march to the bottom. This isn’t about creating a deeper democracy, but deeper markets – and the two are increasingly incompatible. Germany’s Angela Merkel has shown no compunction about meddling in the democratic affairs of other European countries – tacitly warning Greeks against voting for Syriza for instance, or forcing the Spanish socialist prime minister, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, to rip up the spending commitments that had won him an election.

 

The diplomatic beatings administered to Syriza since it came to power this year can only be seen as Europe trying to set an example to any Spanish voters who might be tempted to support its sister movement Podemos. Go too far left, runs the message, and you’ll get the same treatment.

 

Whatever the founding ideals of the eurozone, they don’t match up to the grim reality in 2015. This is Thatcher’s revolution, or Reagan’s – but now on a continental scale. And as then, it is accompanied by the idea that There Is No Alternative either to running an economy, or even to which kind of government voters get to choose.

 

The fact that this entire show is being brought in by agreeable-looking Wise Folk often claiming to be social democratic doesn’t render the project any nicer or gentler. It just lends the entire thing a nasty tang of hypocrisy.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/22/greece-eurozone-germans-single-currency

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Guest PatrickT

what constantly amazes me is that this tosser comes and pollutes this very small and limited forum, troll that he is, and my first question is .... whats he trying to prove ?

 

attention whoredom at its height so google can catch him with his looks so the whole world can see how much of a wanker he is?

 

or maybe he is on the payroll of either a turkish of skopian organization to see how much shit he can stir up for propaganda purposes

 

it doesnt make sense otherwise ...especially with his ridiculous propensity to spread bullshit

 

either way ... such a loser

 

loser.jpg

 

 

Well your rants don´t change the fact that i´m young and you are old and soon cold. Nothing to add about that. 

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Guest PatrickT

This is a very interesting article, definitely worth a read:

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/22/greece-eurozone-germans-single-currency

 

The problem of the article is that it assumes that germany should do the same mistakes that the others do. Germany is extrempy productive and generates gargantuan profits. Other nations are unable to do so. It doesn also not state the simple fact that no other nation in europe produces anything of worth for the world. Germany does. Engineering and science.

 

We live in a globalized world. We must be competitive. We can´t win in the world with mediterranean laziness. 

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A very interesting article, Admin. Thanks for sharing that.

 

Patrick: I came here just now with the intention of asking the very same question that Eyo did. He beat me to the punch...and I see that you refuse to answer his question. Of course, you're not going to give me an honest answer either, but I will ask the question.  "Why are you here?"  I may be a little more polite than Eyo...but it's a fact, and not an insult, that you're a very ill-mannered youngster and I would say the same to any young man who came into my home spreading venom and talking about my people the way you do. You should be thanking Admin every day for allowing you to be here. If I were in an admin position, I'd be taking a democratic vote and you would be gone.

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Guest PatrickT

A very interesting article, Admin. Thanks for sharing that.

 

Patrick: I came here just now with the intention of asking the very same question that Eyo did. He beat me to the punch...and I see that you refuse to answer his question. Of course, you're not going to give me an honest answer either, but I will ask the question.  "Why are you here?"  I may be a little more polite than Eyo...but it's a fact, and not an insult, that you're a very ill-mannered youngster and I would say the same to any young man who came into my home spreading venom and talking about my people the way you do. You should be thanking Admin every day for allowing you to be here. If I were in an admin position, I'd be taking a democratic vote and you would be gone.

 

 

Why i´m here? Your people are the parasites of my nation. Your people live from our money, make outragious claims and demand even more. Estonias president made the perfect statement today: greeks demand an even bigger party, paid from the european tax payers. It is interesting to be here and see the delusion. Not from all but many who actually believe that all should pay for the greeks while they do nothing. It makes me sick to see that and it isactually a posssibility to show here the other side. I don´t want oay a single cent for greece from my tax money. And i say this openly. I don´t care if your people starve, because it is their own fault. 

 

Do you feel happy about a parasitic culture? And what makes you think that hard working europeans should pay the greeks their living? Greece never helped anyone. Thats the basic fact. As a matter of fact, the big majority of germans hates greece and think it should be kicked out and rott. 

 

https://euobserver.com/tickers/129149

 

"Fifty eight percent of Germans would favour Greece leaving the eurozone in case of default, according to a YouGov poll published on Wednesday (17 June). Twenty eight percent of respondents would prefer Greece to stay and 14 percent don't know. Forty nine percent, against 41, think a Grexit is possible."

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Guest PatrickT

Exactly what I thought you'd say. Have you ever heard the term "a one trick pony"?  So sorry to hear our forum makes you sick.

Not this forum, that country. Is it so hard to understand the other side? Greece, greece, greece. Evry effort on this country is wasted. It is unable to reform. Germany already wasted 80 billion € for greece. Momey we could invest in our streets and infrastructure. We waste eneegy, money and time for some country that did never anything for us. We hear all this bullshit since 5 years now.

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Guest eyoismos

Well your rants don´t change the fact that i´m young and you are old and soon cold. Nothing to add about that. 

i have survived africa, and STILL surviving

 

and one thing, of many, that africa has taught me is .... dont count your chickens before they hatch

 

there is still plenty of time for you to see you own ass .... and yes ...your arrogance and youth will give you many ample opportunities to see it multiple times ... and your constant rants and tirades are the building blocks for future sorrows

 

so carry on

 

the internet never forgives

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The problem of the article is that it assumes that germany should do the same mistakes that the others do. Germany is extrempy productive and generates gargantuan profits. Other nations are unable to do so. It doesn also not state the simple fact that no other nation in europe produces anything of worth for the world. Germany does. Engineering and science.

 

We live in a globalized world. We must be competitive. We can´t win in the world with mediterranean laziness. 

 

Have you thought for one minute who pockets those "gargantuan profits"? Is it the German people as a whole or a small (tiny) elite? Think about it and do some research.

 

The Greek elite live mighty fine too. In fact, they most likely do way better than they ever did these days. It's the average Greek who suffers. And don't think that the average German is in a much better position. It doesn't take much for an economy to go sour. Sure, Germany as a bigger and wealthier country will have more support mechanisms in place to withstand such as shock, but it's always going to be the average guy who will take the brunt of any economic downturn.

 

If you did indeed grow up in a lower middle class household, as I did, then you should be much more sympathetic to the suffering of the people.

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Guest PatrickT

Have you thought for one minute who pockets those "gargantuan profits"? Is it the German people as a whole or a small (tiny) elite? Think about it and do some research.

 

The Greek elite live mighty fine too. In fact, they most likely do way better than they ever did these days. It's the average Greek who suffers. And don't think that the average German is in a much better position. It doesn't take much for an economy to go sour. Sure, Germany as a bigger and wealthier country will have more support mechanisms in place to withstand such as shock, but it's always going to be the average guy who will take the brunt of any economic downturn.

 

If you did indeed grow up in a lower middle class household, as I did, then you should be much more sympathetic to the suffering of the people.

 

I have only sympathy for my own people. I had little sympathy for the greeks before syriza. And i lost that little sympathy not long ago. I reached the state where i simply don´t care. Pulling the IWF into the game was a master decission from chancellor Merkel. Merkel always made clear that there can only be a solution with the IWF. Now the IWF puts greece out of its misery with a bullet and merkel can say she did not do it. 

 

This entire charade went on far too long. 

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I'd think the opposite. Tsipras has Europe in a stranglehold with his call for a referendum. I don't think anyone was expecting this move (I wasn't for sure). 

This looks like a move a game theorist would do, so I suspect that Varoufakis' advice is behind all this.

 

We'll see whether this will work to Greece's benefit or if it will backfire. It goes without saying that Greeks in their vast majority will vote no to this referendum. What remains to be seen then is what the Tsipras government will do after the vote.

If the reject the measures suggested by EE and the money coming with it then how are they going to pay the creditors?

 

I hope that Varoufakis, the Greek government, IMF and EU officials realize that this is not a game. The're playing with people's lives here.

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Guest PatrickT

I'd think the opposite. Tsipras has Europe in a stranglehold with his call for a referendum. I don't think anyone was expecting this move (I wasn't for sure). 

This looks like a move a game theorist would do, so I suspect that Varoufakis' advice is behind all this.

 

We'll see whether this will work to Greece's benefit or if it will backfire. It goes without saying that Greeks in their vast majority will vote no to this referendum. What remains to be seen then is what the Tsipras government will do after the vote.

If the reject the measures suggested by EE and the money coming with it then how are they going to pay the creditors?

 

I hope that Varoufakis, the Greek government, IMF and EU officials realize that this is not a game. The're playing with people's lives here.

 

The game is over. Our finance minister Schäuble said the program will not be prolonged until a referendum. Germany considers the today move as greece as break up from negotiations. So far the 18 other finance ministers agree. The referendum is meaningless with this. Syriza lost the game. 

 

For europe that means it will be more stable, more german and more powerful. For greece? Nobody knows. Many guess it will fall into chaos and become a failed state. The majority in germany is against any help for greece. Thats what Varoufakis and Tsipras don´t bring into their "game", that the german people want greece out. And a referendum in greece has no power over german interests. In the end the result would mean that germany should also hold a referendum if greece should be helped? The answer would be a no. 

 

Its good that this nonsense ends now. In the end germany and greece can still be allied withother. No need to be enemies. The ultimatum set from Schäuble did work to end this pathetic show. 

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Guest eyoismos

just listened to the speech by the KKE leader in parliament

 

and i thought to myself

 

OMF ! if only we could convert all the shit he said into manure, and we would feed the whole of europe

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I'd think the opposite. Tsipras has Europe in a stranglehold with his call for a referendum. I don't think anyone was expecting this move (I wasn't for sure). 

This looks like a move a game theorist would do, so I suspect that Varoufakis' advice is behind all this.

 

We'll see whether this will work to Greece's benefit or if it will backfire. It goes without saying that Greeks in their vast majority will vote no to this referendum. What remains to be seen then is what the Tsipras government will do after the vote.

If the reject the measures suggested by EE and the money coming with it then how are they going to pay the creditors?

 

I hope that Varoufakis, the Greek government, IMF and EU officials realize that this is not a game. The're playing with people's lives here.

IMF end EU officials never thought of it as a game. Tsipras did.

And oh boy was he wrong.

I'll grab my popcorn and watch, not without delight, the last episode of the drama: The Agonizing Exitus of Nova-Graecia.

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Guest eyoismos

way too much blah blah blah in greek parliament

 

having said that, i liked what benizelos asked, ie the right questions. but his interpretations, after them,  had much to be desired. some i agree, some i dont, but overall ... too much blah blah blah

 

konstantopoulou  ... as usual .... lets just say infuriating

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Guest eyoismos

i think i have had enough for tonight from parliament

 

anybody else following? if so ... maybe they can give us followups

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Guest

There is no one worth listening to in Greece. The country existence depends on the good will of the Europeans. As soon as that runs out Greece will fall apart.

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Guest PatrickT

I find this now very entertaining and interesting. I hope i get some exciting tasks in the next weeks and it will be an interesting development.

 

On a sidenote, vancouver has become much more likely as my foreign experience semester today. ;)

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Guest eyoismos

άλλαξα καναλι λοιπόν και το μάτι μου έγινε γαρίδα

 

κάτι θεομανουλομάνουλα με φουστανάκια μέχρι κει πάνω να κολάζουν με τα τσάμικα τους

 

και ξεχνώ προσωρινά τα δεινά μας

 

:)

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Guest

άλλαξα καναλι λοιπόν και το μάτι μου έγινε γαρίδα

 

κάτι θεομανουλομάνουλα με φουστανάκια μέχρι κει πάνω να κολάζουν με τα τσάμικα τους

 

και ξεχνώ προσωρινά τα δεινά μας

 

:)

Viva Turko-Graecia

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Guest eyoismos

Viva Turko-Graecia

 μίλησε ο τραμπούκος Αχμέτ Μπεηαφέντης

:P

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