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Time Out: Let's Stop the Blame Game in Europe

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Guest eyoismos

i am not ,, not even for one moment, forgiving or forgetting what greece as a country is highly guilty of

 

far from it

 

but please ! the finger waggling i referred to earlier by germany somehow is nowhere near digestable

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Guest PatrickT

Eyoismus...we are talking about politics and economy here. Of course germany is no saint. We are a nation and not a church. Nobody claims that we are a saint. Politics and economy are dirty business. We would not dominate the EU if we were saints and we would not have the economic power we have, if we were saints.

 

The difference here is, that both our nations are corrupt in a different way.

 

One nations corruption leads to economic power, sucess and nearly unlimited growth...the other ones corruption created mass poverty, bancruptcy and government institutions on 3rd world levels. Nobody in germany blames greece for corruption. But you for doing it the wrong way.

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Guest eyoismos

 

Nobody in germany blames greece for corruption

pull the other one ...i mean ...whole the hell you think you are kidding

 

 

But you for doing it the wrong way.

wtf !!! there is a right way and a wrong way of being corrupt?

that indeed is the extent of sanctimonious germany who is indeed morally bankrupt

 

 

let me tell you patrick ... there is a story that has broken out in greece (and is indeed current and ongoing) ....about a 22 year old young girl who went berserk in class and stabbed 3 of her classmates. first reaction ... sick woman grown up with the perverse knowledge of violence is the solution, maybe a ghetto version of power brokering ..... then the truth started coming out. for years and years she was victim of malicious bullying tactics by the very same.... flash point ...and she could take no more

 

remind you of anything?

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Guest PatrickT

pull the other one ...i mean ...whole the hell you think you are kidding

 

wtf !!! there is a right way and a wrong way of being corrupt?

that indeed is the extent of sanctimonious germany who is indeed morally bankrupt

 

 

let me tell you patrick ... there is a story that has broken out in greece (and is indeed current and ongoing) ....about a 22 year old young girl who went berserk in class and stabbed 3 of her classmates. first reaction ... sick woman grown up with the perverse knowledge of violence is the solution, maybe a ghetto version of power brokering ..... then the truth started coming out. for years and years she was victim of malicious bullying tactics by the very same.... flash point ...and she could take no more

 

remind you of anything?

 

 

Greece can´t go berserk. It simply is too small and weak. 

 

This is a bout power and i may be young but even i know how this game works. Germany sold poison gas to Saddm and gas masks to his enemy Iran....

Nothing done in diplomacy is done for peace and friendship buddy. 

 

Germany did not support greece in the last years for making friends. The reason was that we needed time to stabilize the EU, the banking sector and bring our own banks out of the heat.

 

This goal was achieved now. Greece no longer poses a threat.

 

See it from our position.

 

On one hand we need greece as stabilizing factor in the region and it would be a negative signal in the powergame with russia.

 

On the other hand greece is a burden but can cause no harm to the EU anymore because we did the necessary steps to avoid chaos.

 

In the end chancellor Merkel is the one deciding about greece fate if you like it or not. 

 

I think the most realistic option will be that greece will go nearly bancrupt so syriza is washed away and then a taskforce takes over. Greece can´t governt itself right now. 

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I think the most realistic option will be that greece will go nearly bancrupt so syriza is washed away and then a taskforce takes over. Greece can´t governt itself right now. 

 

If this happens then I hope that this task force is not a military junta. 

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Guest PatrickT

If this happens then I hope that this task force is not a military junta. 

 

 

I doubt this. I think it should contain people from all aspects of the greek society and EU supervisors. Greece aloe can´t handle this anymore. Thats the sad fact.

 

The EU offered greece to freeze all bank accounts of greek tax thieves...so far greece did not respond. Greece simply is not willing to install a functional tax system. 

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Ajax, Greece is more European than Asian. Greece went from a 400 year occupation to rebellion, civil wars, Balkan wars, world wars, another civil war, and a dictatorship. While the rest of Europe was also experiencing some of that, they were also benefiting from raiding the resources from the rest of the world, even the small European nations that did not raid were part of empires or traded with their wealthy neighbors, obviously it was different in the Balkans. The Balkans were under true occupation. While Greece did not follow the same path as the rest of Europe it still has more in common culturally with Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, than Turkey or Syria, ... This did not happen over night, but Greece slowly rejoined Europe. So I am not agreeing that Greece is more ottoman/middle eastern than European. Maybe your problem is that you think of Europe as Germany, Sweden, Luxembourg and are forgetting that Europe is diverse.

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Guest eyoismos

I doubt this. I think it should contain people from all aspects of the greek society and EU supervisors. Greece aloe can´t handle this anymore. Thats the sad fact.

 

The EU offered greece to freeze all bank accounts of greek tax thieves...so far greece did not respond. Greece simply is not willing to install a functional tax system. 

 

the EU ???/

daaaamnnn ! (slapping my forehead with my palm) ...you cant even get your facts straight

 

 

Germany would be willing to freeze the bank accounts of wealthy Greeks suspected of tax fraud, Economics Minister Sigmar Gabriel said in a newspaper interview on Saturday.

"We have offered to freeze the bank accounts of wealthy Greek citizens that owe taxes to their homeland. The offer stands, but for that [to happen] the Greek financial authorities need to get active," Mr. Gabriel told the German daily Rheinische Post.

 

oops ! my bad !

 

it completely blew over my head the fact that many, if not most, in germany believe that the EU is in actuality a personal feudal vassal in order to use and abuse in order for germany to achieve its no-colonialist endeavors

 

so maybe technically you are correct in your assessment .... at least from your perspective

 

my apologies

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Guest eyoismos

Ajax, Greece is more European than Asian. Greece went from a 400 year occupation to rebellion, civil wars, Balkan wars, world wars, another civil war, and a dictatorship. While the rest of Europe was also experiencing some of that, they were also benefiting from raiding the resources from the rest of the world, even the small European nations that did not raid were part of empires or traded with their wealthy neighbors, obviously it was different in the Balkans. The Balkans were under true occupation. While Greece did not follow the same path as the rest of Europe it still has more in common culturally with Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, than Turkey or Syria, ... This did not happen over night, but Greece slowly rejoined Europe. So I am not agreeing that Greece is more ottoman/middle eastern than European. Maybe your problem is that you think of Europe as Germany, Sweden, Luxembourg and are forgetting that Europe is diverse.

 

luxemburg is to germany, what cyprus was to russia .... and we all know that germany thinks of russia as the enemy .... so .... we all know what happened to cyprus .... but ... well.... nothing to luxenburg

 

and then is the question of switzerland .... for the same reasons

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Guest PatrickT

the EU ???/

daaaamnnn ! (slapping my forehead with my palm) ...you cant even get your facts straight

 

 

oops ! my bad !

 

it completely blew over my head the fact that many, if not most, in germany believe that the EU is in actuality a personal feudal vassal in order to use and abuse in order for germany to achieve its no-colonialist endeavors

 

so maybe technically you are correct in your assessment .... at least from your perspective

 

my apologies

 

 

With all due respect, but thats the natural order of things. Germany is the hegemonial power in the EU, if you like it or not. So what you see here is just the natural way of things. We have the entire EU on our shoulders and so far i think we manage it alright. Its only greece that causes problems. 

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Ajax, Greece is more European than Asian. Greece went from a 400 year occupation to rebellion, civil wars, Balkan wars, world wars, another civil war, and a dictatorship. While the rest of Europe was also experiencing some of that, they were also benefiting from raiding the resources from the rest of the world, even the small European nations that did not raid were part of empires or traded with their wealthy neighbors, obviously it was different in the Balkans. The Balkans were under true occupation. While Greece did not follow the same path as the rest of Europe it still has more in common culturally with Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, than Turkey or Syria, ... This did not happen over night, but Greece slowly rejoined Europe. So I am not agreeing that Greece is more ottoman/middle eastern than European. Maybe your problem is that you think of Europe as Germany, Sweden, Luxembourg and are forgetting that Europe is diverse.

 

Only someone who doesn't know Europe could ever say that. Take a road trip from Munich to Athens and you'll realize that the last European city you pass through is Zagreb in Croatia. After that come the Ottoman principalities. By the time you made it to Athens you are in the Ottoman heartland. It doesn't sound, smell, look or feel European any more. Consequently: Greece has no place in the European Union.

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Guest eyoismos

With all due respect, but thats the natural order of things. Germany is the hegemonial power in the EU, if you like it or not. So what you see here is just the natural way of things. We have the entire EU on our shoulders and so far i think we manage it alright. Its only greece that causes problems.

 

nein, mein Deutscher Kaiser ..... time to escape that timezone capsule in the twilight zone

 

the EU is not subservient  to germany ...and she, via her history, has proven it again and again and again

 

if that is the predominant mentality in germany, then i fear for her, and pity her, for she might end up reliving history again

 

already some indications are starting to show that tsarist behaviors are not exactly in the best interests of europe

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-25/british-pm-david-cameron-refuses-to-pay-eu-bill-by-december/5841200

 

or maybe ...

 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/merkel-and-juncker-in-stand-off-over-greece-a-1023365.html

 

and these are but simple examples

 

we wont even mention the strong and growing eurosceptics

 

this of course has nothing to do with what is right or wrong, according to shall we call it "european ethics" ...as opposed to indivual country's in the EU ethics and sense of justice

 

this has to do with europe as a whole just is not happy with the concept of big bwana, and "some pigs are more equal than others"

 

by the way .... are you by any chance related to any of these clever oxymorons who visited us

 

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2012/06/05/german-tourists-in-crete-say-we-dont-pay-for-beers-because-you-owe-us/

 

in crete of all places

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Guest eyoismos

Only someone who doesn't know Europe could ever say that. Take a road trip from Munich to Athens and you'll realize that the last European city you pass through is Zagreb in Croatia. After that come the Ottoman principalities. By the time you made it to Athens you are in the Ottoman heartland. It doesn't sound, smell, look or feel European any more. Consequently: Greece has no place in the European Union.

 

define european then

 

i am curious to know

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Guest PatrickT

It would be nice if you stop personal insults and step back into the topic. 

 

No, i don´t make holiday at crete. I was only one time in greece on a cruise and visited Katakolon and Olympia. Greece is a lowbudget holiday destination and i prefer other destinations. I´m on a cruise with my girlfriend to Mauritius, Seychelles, Nosy Be, La reunion and Madagascar this winter. So i apology but greece is not my main target destination. 

 

As for your rant. No. Nothing changes in Europe. Cameron paid and so far the entire EU does what germany demands. We are the most powerful country in the entire EU so it is just the natural way of things that we decide.

 

Face reality...we are sucessful for a reason. Greece is weak for a reason. 

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define european then

 

i am curious to know

Newton, Leibnitz, Kepler, Copernicus, only to name a few, all published their groundbreaking work in Latin. Thousand years of Catholicism with latin as the common language among scholars from Lisbon over Paris, Dresden, Prague and Krakow all the way to Königsberg established a common terminology. This was the base for the scientific, technological and administrative development in Europe. Europeans think in common terms which are completely alien to Greeks. The European understanding of Governance, Administration, Scholarship has nothing to do with our Byzantine/Ottoman notions of those things.

 

The influence of Italian craftsman is visible in Lisbon and Madrid as it is Paris, Heidelberg, Munich and Warsow. There is such a thing as a European sense of aesthetics which again is completely alien to Greeks. Any of the cities I've mentioned has a distinct European look and feel. Athens on the other hand has a distinct Levantine look and feel. It is more like Bagdad and nothing like Munich for example.

 

Just like Bagdad was build on the ruins of Ancient Babylon without any connection to the past, Athens stands as a mockery of modernity without any real connection to the Old Athenian commonwealth. It doesn't belong to modernity or to antiquity. It got lost in the transition. And the sooner we acknowledge that the better.

 

The fact that we find ourselves isolated in Europe demonstrates theat as a nation we have still not found our place in the world.

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Guest eyoismos

It would be nice if you stop personal insults and step back into the topic. 

 

you "rattled my goat" when you dared to question the sovereignty of greece and her islands as a method of payment ... so i wouldnt talk too much about personal insults

 

No, i don´t make holiday at crete. I was only one time in greece on a cruise and visited Katakolon and Olympia. Greece is a lowbudget holiday destination and i prefer other destinations. I´m on a cruise with my girlfriend to Mauritius, Seychelles, Nosy Be, La reunion and Madagascar this winter. So i apology but greece is not my main target destination. 

 

you missed the boat about the sarcasm of certain attitudes prevailing amongst many germans - but then again german sarcasm is different to greek, or indeed i suspect in many in europe

 

As for your rant. No. Nothing changes in Europe. Cameron paid and so far the entire EU does what germany demands. We are the most powerful country in the entire EU so it is just the natural way of things that we decide.

 

no rant .... fact.... more and more in europe are getting pissed off with germany and her so called extreme "austerity" attempted to be forced onto everybody in europe ... and germany best stop counting chickens before they hatch

 

Face reality...we are sucessful for a reason. definitely true Greece is weak for a reason. also most definately true

 

but remember ... the sting is in the tail ...and i quote nobody else but you  "Germany sold poison gas to Saddm and gas masks to his enemy Iran...."

 

DONT get me wrong ... many many things makes germany admirable in her achievements , but by the same token she also conveniently forgets  quite a few circumstances of how she got there coming from OUTSIDE her internal or external actions AND her so called business practices -> see scandals that rocked germany "recently" as in the past decades

 

all i am saying or suggesting is .... a chain is as good only as its weakest link ...and yes, greece could easily be said to be a very weak link. economically or otherwise speaking, just as many others in the "southern states" . But  questions can just as easily arise about who created those weak links..... yes the countries themselves, but also most definitely germany must be included in the sin box, with no "light sentence"

 

and attitudes of "mightier than though" that you so diligently display helps blow-all in any decent conversation - might IS NOT right

 

seriously ... you remind me of some street brawl, where the one fighter likes to gloat when the other fighter is down, while continuing to physically abuse that person at his feet - it shows a serious mean streak .... worthy of those in the 3rd world - i should know ... i live there - and not of europe and its so called current culture that ajax loves to preach about with so much glow

 

tone it down and i will gladly reciprocate

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Guest eyoismos

Newton, Leibnitz, Kepler, Copernicus, only to name a few, all published their groundbreaking work in Latin. Thousand years of Catholicism with latin as the common language among scholars from Lisbon over Paris, Dresden, Prague and Krakow all the way to Königsberg established a common terminology. This was the base for the scientific, technological and administrative development in Europe. Europeans think in common terms which are completely alien to Greeks. The European understanding of Governance, Administration, Scholarship has nothing to do with our Byzantine/Ottoman notions of those things.

 

The influence of Italian craftsman is visible in Lisbon and Madrid as it is Paris, Heidelberg, Munich and Warsow. There is such a thing as a European sense of aesthetics which again is completely alien to Greeks. Any of the cities I've mentioned has a distinct European look and feel. Athens on the other hand has a distinct Levantine look and feel. It is more like Bagdad and nothing like Munich for example.

 

Just like Bagdad was build on the ruins of Ancient Babylon without any connection to the past, Athens stands as a mockery of modernity without any real connection to the Old Athenian commonwealth. It doesn't belong to modernity or to antiquity. It got lost in the transition. And the sooner we acknowledge that the better.

 

The fact that we find ourselves isolated in Europe demonstrates theat as a nation we have still not found our place in the world.

 

 

lets just start with only the beginning ...and maybe we can take it one step at a time

 

so are you suggesting that latin and Catholicism is the basis of being european? (for some random and obscure reason inquisition and Protestantism popped into my head)

 

...or both falls of Constantinople (by our european "brothers" and by the turks) - aka Byzantine, had absolutely nothing to do with Renaissance and it coming about ? 

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Guest PatrickT

As you said yourself eyoismos. There is always a weak part in a chain. Germany must care for an entire continent. Eastern europeans would not be happy if we act soft with greece. I trust our chancellor to find a solution to solve this in our best interest

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http://www.hellenism.net/greece/greek-history/ottoman/

 

...

When the Ottomans arrived, two Greek migrations occurred. The first migration entailed the Greek intelligentsia migrating to Western Europe and influencing the advent of the Renaissance. 

 

I think that the migration of many Greeks to the west after - and around the time of - the fall of Constantinople did influence (and possibly helped) kickstart Renaissance. However, this is a long way from saying that Greeks or Greece and Byzantium at the time in general had anything to do with the Renaissance.

 

Some exceptional individuals, yes. The "Greek world" as a whole, no. The average Greek at the time was as backwards as it gets under the rule of Byzantium and they remained at pretty much the same situation (no better or worse...) when the Ottomans took over.

 

It was the foreigners (the Byrons, the Shelleys and the rest of the philhellenes of the 18th and 19th century) who implanted in the "modern" Greek psyche the notion that they're the continuation and the proud descendants of the glorious Greeks of ancient times. That's when those "new" Greeks of the 18th and 19th century started naming their kids Odysseus, Achilles etc, trying create a glorious ethnic identity for themselves, which was completely at odds with their current situation and lives.

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lets just start with only the beginning ...and maybe we can take it one step at a time

 

so are you suggesting that latin and Catholicism is the basis of being european? (for some random and obscure reason inquisition and Protestantism popped into my head)

 

...or both falls of Constantinople (by our european "brothers" and by the turks) - aka Byzantine, had absolutely nothing to do with Renaissance and it coming about ? 

I'm not suggesting. I'm stating the obvious fact. The Thousand years Europe spend under the tutelage of the Roma Church established Latin as the common language in jurispudence, governance and scholarship.

 

That is a fact. By the time protestantism emerged, that would be in the 16th century, all the scholars of Europe, regardless of field, would communicate in Latin. By the time Protestantism emerged the rensisance was already underway.

 

As far as Constantinople is concerned. It never had anything to offer and contributed NOTHING to the formative process of Europe. If you want to disagree I chalenge you to give name even ONE contribution of Byzantium to Europe.

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Guest eyoismos

As you said yourself eyoismos. There is always a weak part in a chain. Germany must care for an entire continent. Eastern europeans would not be happy if we act soft with greece.

much better

 

but with one suggested correction "Germany must care for an entire continent" in conjunction and cooperation with the rest of the nations of europe

 

 

in other words ...show and act with leadership ... not subtle resemblances of dictatorship

 

 

I trust our chancellor to find a solution to solve this in our best interest

 

again correction ... "we" should trust that ALL our leaders find the right solution, for nobody is an island. if anybody would dare to assume so..... boy is europe going to experience a cataclysmic event

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Guest PatrickT

much better

 

but with one suggested correction "Germany must care for an entire continent" in conjunction and cooperation with the rest of the nations of europe

 

 

in other words ...show and act with leadership ... not subtle resemblances of dictatorship

 

 

 

 

again correction ... "we" should trust that ALL our leaders find the right solution, for nobody is an island. if anybody would dare to assume so..... boy is europe going to experience a cataclysmic event

Europe has only one leader and her name is Chancellor Merkel. Germany did not want this position but we simply achieved it. Nobody wants a dictatorship...but the others are simply to weak to act. And you cant please evryone.

 

Look, if we gave in for greece, then eastern europe, finland, netherland would go berzerk. You could also see that portugal and spain actively torpedoed a greek proposal for debt relief. Try to see it from our position.

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@ admin and ajax  ... only because i am not in the mood to write essays from memory

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_scholars_in_the_Renaissance

 

and

 

http://www.byzantiumnovum.org/byzantium_important.htm

 

and these is but a kickstart in self recognition

 

and apart from endeavoring to recognize east's and west's warts

There were no Byzantine scholars because scholarship was outlawed in Byzantium around the 7th century AD. The last noteworthy east Roman scholar was Ioannis Philoponus who lived around that time.

 

After that we had a couple of Byzantine Historians and Chronists and an awfull lot of Bible thumpers which pretty much all of the people on that wiki list are.

Granted some of them became scholars after they arrived in the west and found themselves immersed in the spirit of the Renaisance but to claim the Byzantium contributed to the renaisance is outright idiotic.

 

The study of Mechanics, Astronomy and Euclidean geometry where outlawed in Byzantium while the same subjects were studied in Europe at the dawn of the renaisance. And the Europeans had the advantage to draw not only from the Greek traditions passed down through the Romans but also from the advancements introduced by Arab scholars. The Renaisance was dawning in the west long before the triumph of the Ottomans over Byzantium.

 

Just remember that at the siege of Constantinople the Turks employed European Siege engineers and Hungarian Siege Cannons while the Byzantines had no clue about cannons or ballistics.

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Guest eyoismos

Europe has only one leader and her name is Chancellor Merkel. Germany did not want this position but we simply achieved it. Nobody wants a dictatorship...but the others are simply to weak to act. And you cant please evryone.

 

I beg to differ ... and i bet a shit load of european leaders would think the same. I wont elaborate, but i would put forward something , a concept if you will, from the orthodox church hierarchy (and please dont think in terms of religion or religious affiliation) ... the idea of first amongst equals. THAT is what i would accept, i i would place every dime i had, that the rest of the EU leadership would be in agreement with me - after all ... is that not what the EU founding principles are all about

 

Look, if we gave in for greece, then eastern europe, finland, netherland would go berzerk. You could also see that portugal and spain actively torpedoed a greek proposal for debt relief. Try to see it from our position.

 

uhm .... well i hear podamus is causing great concern to the german leadership ...even maybe pooping themselves? and that is just one of them. i mean ... why the almost godless rush to squash and cripple the greek government "before its too late" ...like the next spanish elections ... or maybe the european parliament elctions whereby NF came first, not to mention recent ones  or .... the Portuguese ones ... also scheduled this year

 

no my friend ... the extreme austerity that you desire to see as "your" position has proved to be a miserably failure. dont get me wrong ... austerity measures that germany is pushing was and is necessary.... BUT THERE IS A LIMIT ...And in a way, i have no problem greece's need to be bitchslapped into reality ...many many MANY greeks, mostly from the realm of the common man, too powerless to do anything about it in a way would agree, and overall would embrace the idea of "its about time" . but again THERE IS A LIMIT ... for the "slapee" is almost comatose and germany insists on continuing its bitchslapping. That is not leadership.... that is heartless and thoughtless "kaiseristic" dictatorship

 

"A reed before the wind lives on, while mighty oaks do fall" as the proverb goes

 

how much bending? ...well that is for the EU to decide ... NOT germany alone, a member of the EU. A leader perhaps, amongst them, but first amongst equals

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Guest eyoismos

There were no Byzantine scholars because scholarship was outlawed in Byzantium around the 7th century AD. The last noteworthy east Roman scholar was Ioannis Philoponus who lived around that time.

 

After that we had a couple of Byzantine Historians and Chronists and an awfull lot of Bible thumpers which pretty much all of the people on that wiki list are.

Granted some of them became scholars after they arrived in the west and found themselves immersed in the spirit of the Renaisance but to claim the Byzantium contributed to the renaisance is outright idiotic.

 

The study of Mechanics, Astronomy and Euclidean geometry where outlawed in Byzantium while the same subjects were studied in Europe at the dawn of the renaisance. And the Europeans had the advantage to draw not only from the Greek traditions passed down through the Romans but also from the advancements introduced by Arab scholars. The Renaisance was dawning in the west long before the triumph of the Ottomans over Byzantium.

 

Just remember that at the siege of Constantinople the Turks employed European Siege engineers and Hungarian Siege Cannons while the Byzantines had no clue about cannons or ballistics.

 

 

i suggest you re-evaluate your sense of history and the byzantium

 

for example, but one ..

 

Byzantium has been often identified with absolutism, orthodox spirituality, orientalism and exoticism, while the terms "Byzantine" and "Byzantinism" have been used as bywords for decadence, complex bureaucracy, and repression. In the countries of Central and Southeast Europe that exited the Eastern Bloc in the late 1980s and early 1990s, the assessment of Byzantine civilisation and its legacy was strongly negative due to their connection with an alleged "Eastern authoritarianism and autocracy." Both Eastern and Western European authors have often perceived Byzantium as a body of religious, political, and philosophical ideas contrary to those of the West. Even in 19th-century Greece, the focus was mainly on the classical past, while Byzantine tradition had been associated with negative connotations.%5B244%5D

 

This traditional approach towards Byzantium has been partially or wholly disputed and revised by modern studies, which focus on the positive aspects of Byzantine culture and legacy. Averil Cameron regards as undeniable the Byzantine contribution to the formation of the medieval Europe, and both Cameron and Obolensky recognise the major role of Byzantium in shaping Orthodoxy, which in turn occupies a central position in the history and societies of Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, Georgia, Serbia and other countries.%5B245%5D The Byzantines also preserved and copied classical manuscripts, and they are thus regarded as transmitters of the classical knowledge, as important contributors to the modern European civilization, and as precursors of both the Renaissance humanism and the Slav Orthodox culture.%5B246%5D

 

As the only stable long-term state in Europe during the Middle Ages, Byzantium isolated Western Europe from newly emerging forces to the East. Constantly under attack, it distanced Western Europe from Persians, Arabs, Seljuk Turks, and for a time, the Ottomans. From a different perspective, since the 7th century, the evolution and constant reshaping of the Byzantine state were directly related to the respective progress of Islam.

 

and let us not forget the prosecution of Galileo found "vehemently suspect of heresy"," by the magnificent west ...just to name but one

 

point is the byzantium is both intrinsically and extrinsically linked with the coming about and development of so called western civilization and culture

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Guest

 

 

i suggest you re-evaluate your sense of history and the byzantium

 

for example, but one ..

 

 

and let us not forget the prosecution of Galileo found "vehemently suspect of heresy"," by the magnificent west ...just to name but one

 

point is the byzantium is both intrinsically and extrinsically linked with the coming about and development of so called western civilization and culture

What?

that's all the you need to demonstrate  the positive contributions of Byzantium to European culture. Quoting some third grade pseudo scholars who are probably sponsored by some Greek institution?

 

Bullshit. Don't give me quotes. Give me examples. Where do you see the Byzantine influence?

In the Paintings of the European Renaisance?

In the sculptures?

In the Architecture?

In the literature?

In clock making?

In the siege engines and cannon designs?

Can you name even ONE example?

 

There is zero Byzantine contribution to the European renaisance. On the other way the renaisance had an influence on the parts of Greece that were under Venetian control. The "Rota tu Volubilis" of the Carmina Burana is converted to "Του κυκλου τα γυρισματα" in Erotokritos. Which was written by some Vincenzo Cornaro btw and that's not a Byzantine sounding name.

 

The influence of Byzantium and its ban on Scholarship remained alive and kicking in Greece. Even after the war of Independence.

In 1853 Hellas tried, under presure from the Church, Theofilos Kairis of Heresy and imprisoned him on Syros where he died shortly after.

An Orthodox mob led by Clergyman exhummed his corpse cut him open and filled his bely with lime. His only crime: He dared to teach Geometry, Astronomy and natural sciences to Greek children. That's our Byzantine legacy that sets us appart from Europe.  

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Guest eyoismos

Juan de Fuca doesnt sound greek either
 
and kairis might have perished but his work lived on  but lets not forget ...his ideas not only pissed of the religious institutions, but also the imposed by the wenlightened west king of greece
 
and while we are still on the subject of the tossers in greece and their sins of that period ... may i offer Kapodistrias, a russiophile which the west probably instigated his murder because of that

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Ostrogorsky

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averil_Cameron

 

Hagia Sophia

 

weapons of war like greek fire

 

and lets not forget http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Library_of_Constantinople

 

look ... we can go crazy scoring noddy points at each other . but ultimately the byzantium was a continuation of the roman empire, and eventually in it own right established itself as its own entity

 

 

In terms of prosperity and cultural life, the Komnenian period was one of the peaks in Byzantine history,[104] and Constantinople remained the leading city of the Christian world in size, wealth, and culture

 

and lets face it ... without the byzantium in place ...the "west" would have jack shit in terms of the renaissance..... they where too busy saving europe's ass .... NOT that that was their  intention.... they could give a damn, as they where too busy fighting perpetual wars to save their own asses, resulting in warfare being studied and perfected as a science

and i quote from Britannica "and it was the subject of treatises such as the Tactica of Leo VI, derived from the Strategicon of the emperor Maurice"

 

 

The age (profirogennitos) produced little original research, but lexicons (such as the 10th-century Suda), anthologies, encyclopaedias, and commentaries (such as the Lexicon and Bibliotheca of Photius) were produced in great number. The soldier-emperors of the 10th century were less interested in intellectual pursuits, but scholarship received a new impetus in the 11th century with Michael Psellus.

(brittannica)

 

let not your despise and bitterness of the separation of church and state within post independent greece cloud your judgement

 

after all ...remind me when that started to happen in the enlightened europe ?

 

byzantine WAS a important part of western culture and its development, whether you like it or not

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Guest

Juan de Fuca doesnt sound greek either

 

and kairis might have perished but his work lived on  but lets not forget ...his ideas not only pissed of the religious institutions, but also the imposed by the wenlightened west king of greece

 

and while we are still on the subject of the tossers in greece and their sins of that period ... may i offer Kapodistrias, a russiophile which the west probably instigated his murder because of that

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Ostrogorsky

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averil_Cameron

 

Hagia Sophia

 

weapons of war like greek fire

 

and lets not forget http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Library_of_Constantinople

 

look ... we can go crazy scoring noddy points at each other . but ultimately the byzantium was a continuation of the roman empire, and eventually in it own right established itself as its own entity

 

 

and lets face it ... without the byzantium in place ...the "west" would have jack shit in terms of the renaissance..... they where too busy saving europe's ass .... NOT that that was their  intention.... they could give a damn, as they where too busy fighting perpetual wars to save their own asses, resulting in warfare being studied and perfected as a science

and i quote from Britannica "and it was the subject of treatises such as the Tactica of Leo VI, derived from the Strategicon of the emperor Maurice"

 

 

let not your despise and bitterness of the separation of church and state within post independent greece cloud your judgement

 

after all ...remind me when that started to happen in the enlightened europe ?

 

byzantine WAS a important part of western culture and its development, whether you like it or not

Bullshit!

 

I repeat the question: What did Byzantium contribute to Europe.

 

And don't say, again, something stupid like the Hagia Sophia. That pompus monstrosity stands in Istambul and has influenced, without doubt, Ottoman architecure but it had no influence on European Architecture. Which is a good thing.

 

Lexica. I grand you that the byzantines provided Greek lexica to the west. And the Chinese and Japanese did likewise.

There is NOTHING in Europe that was influenced by the Byzantines. Don't grasp for straws.

 

And as far as the ideas of Kairis and Kapodistrias are concerned, those died and were burried with them. The European Enlightenment did not happen in Greece and the few who tried to make it happen, the likes of Kairis and Kapodistrias, were either murdered or driven into exile.

 

And don't tell me any European country in 1853 would try and convict a teacher for teaching Astronomy and Geometry. Darwin published the Origin of Species in 1859 after all and that was a book that was definetely more ofensive to believers than Euclidean Geometry. Did the English Crown imprisson Darwin? 

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