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Time Out: Let's Stop the Blame Game in Europe

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Guest eyoismos

 

what greece needs are structural reforms

 

 

absolutely no arguments there ... its exactly what i said earlier

 

 

Germany got "its shit" together

 

 i beg to differ ... a lot .....

 

but having said that ... it must also be said ...its a fair amount "ahead of the game" with comparison to greece - there is no question about that either

 

 

Reforms which we demand since day one

 which day would that be ?

 

and before you say anything .... think about it very seriously

 

for history can really bite in the ass .... and i am not for one moment talking about ww2

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Guest PatrickT

With all respect, but greece is not in the position to demand anything from us.

 

I told you before that we want something in return. Some of its islands for example. That would be a good deal.

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Guest eyoismos

With all respect, but greece is not in the position to demand anything from us.

 

I told you before that we want something in return. Some of its islands for example. That would be a good deal.

 

 

german humor at its blithering best

 

or maybe not

 

after all ... you DID say ....with all respect

 

i suspect you are maybe timidly showing your true colors ... aggressive belligerence comes to mind, maybe even borderline salacious

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Guest PatrickT

It would be nice if you stop personal insults. Selling or lending islands would be a nice thing. Money is not for free. 

 

We have a proposal in our parliament and would suggest such a deal. That way greece could get rid of its debt and needs no new loans to replace old ones. The entire greek debt is not much for us. 

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The Greeks live in a Dreamworld.

 

Time to face reality: Greece is NOT a European Nation. Never was never will be. It may be geographically located in Europe but it didn't partake in the historic developments that led to the formation of a European Identity. We are just a bunch of Orthodox Levantines with Ottoman attitudes who suddenly found themselves in the European Union. Our mentalities, ethics, understanding of law and governance are Ottoman. So perhaps it is time for Greece to abandon her European delusions and assume her position among the other levantine shit houses that surround us.

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Guest eyoismos

 

It would be nice if you stop personal insults.

oh please !!!! we both know that nature and intent of your comment in question .... vile, venomous and toxic ... and then have the audacity to talk about stopping personal insults

 

all you are doing is confirming your allegance to your said gospel

 

as for land .... a shit load of people, of foreign nationality, have bought land in greece , including just as many of german nationality

 

aboslutely fuck-all is stopping you from doing the same

 

http://www.athensguide.com/dorian/buying-property.htm

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Guest PatrickT

oh please !!!! we both know that nature and intent of your comment in question .... vile, venomous and toxic ... and then have the audacity to talk about stopping personal insults

 

all you are doing is confirming your allegance to your said gospel

 

as for land .... a shit load of people, of foreign nationality, have bought land in greece , including just as many of german nationality

 

aboslutely fuck-all is stopping you from doing the same

 

http://www.athensguide.com/dorian/buying-property.htm

 

 

You took my comment totally wrong. This is not about buying estate. What german parliament suggests is that we get some islands for real. As part of our nation. nur just real estate. 

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Guest eyoismos

The Greeks live in a Dreamworld.

 

Time to face reality: Greece is NOT a European Nation. Never was never will be. It may be geographically located in Europe but it didn't partake in the historic developments that led to the formation of a European Identity. We are just a bunch of Orthodox Levantines with Ottoman attitudes who suddenly found themselves in the European Union. Our mentalities, ethics, understanding of law and governance are Ottoman. So perhaps it is time for Greece to abandon her European delusions and assume her position among the other levantine shit houses that surround us.

 

 

i see that you too, like myself, like most of the greek diaspora have been bitten by the cobras back home, and still reeling from the delirious effects of the bitter poison

 

but then "europe" has had for more time to develop, with the help, perhaps of colonialism, in its hypocritical practices and alleged so called european identity

 

but i will say this ... i dont know what is worse ... the double standards of europe .... or the ottomans

 

anybody got an unbiased coin to toss, ?

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Guest

Well eyo,

 

what should the Germans do then?

Transfer the money so that Tsipras can pay pensions and salaries?

And for how long should they do that?

For ever?

 

The Greeks have shown, so far, no intention to improve the competitivness of the Greek Economy and to increase production.

Promising better wages and pensions as well as hiring more people into the public sector costs money Greece doesnt have

and the Germans are not obligated to bankroll Tsiprases promises to his electorate.

 

So how about discussing the things we, as Greeks, should do to overcome the situation?

Saying gimme gimme gimme to the Germans is not the solution. 

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Guest

i see that you too, like myself, like most of the greek diaspora have been bitten by the cobras back home, and still reeling from the delirious effects of the bitter poison

 

but then "europe" has had for more time to develop, with the help, perhaps of colonialism, in its hypocritical practices and alleged so called european identity

 

but i will say this ... i dont know what is worse ... the double standards of europe .... or the ottomans

 

anybody got an unbiased coin to toss, ?

 

Renaissance, French Revolution, Enlightenment.

 

Greece had no part in any of that. European mentality is completely alien to Greeks.

 

We tend to think ourselves Spartans but an objective external observer who comes to Greece sees a bunch of uncultured, obnoxious, loud, rather short and obese middle eastern peddlers.

 

For short:

We think we are High Elves but everybody looking at us sees Orcs.

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Guest eyoismos

come on ajax ... you know better than that

 

i have never said , nor even implied, or even suggested anything handed over on a plate to greece

 

and as you very well know i have consistently blasted greece for its ineptness in handling its economic, social or political affairs affairs

 

 

 

Saying gimme gimme gimme to the Germans is not the solution

absofuckinglutely !!!!

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Guest

come on ajax ... you know better than that

 

i have never said , nor even implied, or even suggested anything handed over on a plate to greece

 

and as you very well know i have consistently blasted greece for its ineptness in handling its economic, social or political affairs affairs

 

 

absofuckinglutely !!!!

 

So what is your problem with the Germans then?

Have they not given enough aid yet?

Are you blaming them for expecting something in return for their efforts to keep the Greek economy afloat?

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Guest eyoismos

Renaissance, French Revolution, Enlightenment.

 

Greece had no part in any of that. European mentality is completely alien to Greeks.

 

 

 

again ... no argument there ... overall  apart from all of that happened before greece's independence

 

like i said ... they have had more time

 

 

 

 

We tend to think ourselves Spartans but an objective external observer who comes to Greece sees a bunch of uncultured, obnoxious, loud, rather short and obese middle eastern peddlers.

 

For short:

We think we are High Elves but everybody looking at us sees Orcs.

 

extremely harsh and grossly unfair ...and makes me wonder where you have been hanging out. but like i said  earlier .... something about the cobras back home

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Guest eyoismos

So what is your problem with the Germans then?

Have they not given enough aid yet?

Are you blaming them for expecting something in return for their efforts to keep the Greek economy afloat?

 

aid ? like siemens? like HDW? like so many other very suspect situations? like forbidding principles of free trade and giving loans providing they are spent on german products exclusively

 

come on ajax .... germany is no angel. yes.! absolutely!  .germany HAS helped genuinely on the occasion here and there , and that greece should be grateful under certain circumstance ...but finger-wagging without looking at the mirror is .... well ...you know

 

i have no problem with them expecting something in return ...but i absolutely despise double speak, double standards and convenient horse-blinkers, be it economic. political or social

 

That does NOT mean i condone all the total and utter crap greece, through individuals or political parties,  has participate in

 

far from it. there are many many my posts that stand testimony to that, as have most in the diaspora, let alone many in greece have expressed

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Guest

aid ? like siemens? like HDW? like so many other very suspect situations? like forbidding principles of free trade and giving loans providing they are spent on german products exclusively

 

come on ajax .... germany is no angel. yes.! absolutely!  .germany HAS helped genuinely on the occasion here and there , and that greece should be grateful under certain circumstance ...but finger-wagging without looking at the mirror is .... well ...you know

 

i have no problem with them expecting something in return ...but i absolutely despise double speak, double standards and convenient horse-blinkers, be it economic. political or social

 

That does NOT mean i condone all the total and utter crap greece, through individuals or political parties,  has participate in

 

far from it. there are many many my posts that stand testimony to that, as have most in the diaspora, let alone many in greece have expressed

 

 

So what you are saying is:

 

1. Germany has not given us any significant aid.

2. German criticism of Greece is unfair.

 

Sorry to bring it to you but NOBODY outside of Greece will agree with your assesment.

The world, not just Germany, is tired of our shit.

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Guest eyoismos

are you asking?

 or are you jumping to conclusions?

 

because neither 1 or 2 is true .... if anything i have often suggested  "they" are  one-sided and partial of the whole picture

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Guest

I only extracted the core meaning from your unnecesarily long statement.

 

you said: germany HAS helped genuinely on the occasion here and there , and that greece should be grateful under certain circumstance ...but finger-wagging without looking at the mirror is .... well ...you know

 

Meaning: They offered some occasional help but nothing significant.

 

If that's not what you meant to say then you should have worded it differently.

 

Then you go on about Siemens and HDW. You sum them up and they amount to 200 Mil.

Greek, post haircut, debt stands at 420 Bil. That's over 2000 times the damage caused by Siemens and HDW.

So whom do you blame for the rest?

 

Siemens and HDW are a drop in the ocean. You can't blame the Greek crisis on Siemens/HDW in particular or the Germans in general. 

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Guest eyoismos

I only extracted the core meaning from your unnecesarily long statement.

 

you said: germany HAS helped genuinely on the occasion here and there , and that greece should be grateful under certain circumstance ...but finger-wagging without looking at the mirror is .... well ...you know

 

Meaning: They offered some occasional help but nothing significant.

 

If that's not what you meant to say then you should have worded it differently. biased misinterpretation

 

Then you go on about Siemens and HDW. You sum them up hardly! for example i also brought up the fact of highly suspicious conditional loan awards and sold goods at inflated in comparison ot others, prices and they amount to 200 Mil.

Greek, post haircut, debt stands at 420 Bil. That's over 2000 times the damage caused by Siemens and HDW.

So whom do you blame for the rest?

 

Siemens and HDW are a drop in the ocean. You can't blame the Greek crisis on Siemens/HDW in particular or the Germans in general. 

 

let me put it in a slightly different perspective with an analogy... if the world television soap opera producers dared to bring to the couch potato viewers the world over, and specifically the german and greek audiences, what really is going on behind the scenes, irrespective of colors of flags,  (and daring to reveal my age here) JR Ewing and Alexis Carrington are piss-willy minnows in comparison to the players really involved

 

or to put it differently .... what is more dangerous ... the burning fuse or the dynamite? obvious answer? i think not.... one need the other in order to explode .... who is the fuse and who is the dynamite? aye ! that is indeed the question. and we havent even brought up the idea of who is fucking around with the detonator, let alone have access to it, or in control of it, or indeed even who regularly has instigated attempts at trial runs

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Guest eyoismos

You took my comment totally wrong. This is not about buying estate. What german parliament suggests is that we get some islands for real. As part of our nation. nur just real estate. 

 i understood perfectly ... thus what i said

 

but its nice to see you admit that alleged "german parliament" has eyes on neo-colonialism

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Guest

eyo,

 

I'm sorry but you engage in sophistry in a futile attempt to blame the Greek crisis on the Germans.

Spare yourself the lame analogies. The situation is rather simple.

 

The Greek government issued bonds and offered them up on the financial markets.

That's how governments borrow money.

 

After Greece joined the Euro demand for Greek bonds increased and Greece didn't

have to offer high interest to attract investors. In other words Greece could borrow

money on the cheap.

 

At that point the Greek government acted like the glouttonous child in the cake factory

they borrowed more and more money, not to invest in Greece's economy but to keep the party going.

 

The foreign investors, among them German  financial institutions, bought those bonds in good faith thinking that

a Euro economy such as Greece could be trusted.

 

They were wrong. At some point Greece was not able to repay the investors. If we had the Drachma Greece

would be forced to declare bancruptcy. The investors would take a hit and Greece would have no access to fresh money.

Internal transactions would continue in Drachmas of course and standarts of living would be at Botswana levels.

 

But since we had the Euro this was not an option. The Greek central bank can not issue Euros. They have to come from the

European central Bank. At that point there were only two options:

 

1. Declare bankruptcy and go back to the Drachma

 

or 

 

2. Restructure and remain in the Euro 

 

The Greeks in agreement with their European partners opted for the later.

Greek debt had to be restructured and the EU plus IMF decided to help with that.

The claims of foreign investors, such as German banks, were transfered to the EU and the IMF which now became

our creditors. Greece agreed to the payment plan and to the reforms her new creditors demanded.

 

Five years later the reforms are still to be implemented and we are approaching the point where Greece won't be able

to make a payment.

 

Who's fault is that?

Did the Germans force the Greek government to issue bonds and borrow more than it could handle?

Did the Germans block the overdue reforms of Greece's institutions? 

Did the Germans prevent us from investing the money we borowed in the modernization of our economy?

 

The ONLY ONE responsible for this crisis is Greece. Her government as well as her people.

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Good points ajax.

 

Eyo, unfortunately, that's more or less what happened. We can't blame the creditors for giving us money and putting us in debt.

 

We went out there asking for money knowing full well that at some point we'd have to pay it back. In typical Greek fashion though each government that borrowed had in the back of their minds the usual Greek mentality of "let the next government figure out how they're going to repay this loan". Worse yet, even after we've reached the point of no return the new Greek government goes around asking for more money yet! It's like we don't get it, or I guess our politicians and most of the morons who vote for them don't get it.

 

My only hope is that the EU (and yes, the bad Germans too) will figure out a way to save us one more time because we're incapable of saving ourselves.

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Guest eyoismos

 

I'm sorry but you engage in sophistry in a futile attempt to blame the Greek crisis on the Germans.

you are dead wrong on that. and my constant tirade against the greek goverments during the past decades bare witness to that

 

but i DO claim that germany is no innocent sheep and has to bare witness to her own sins ... if anything to contributing to the mess for her own exclusive gains, including for example putting blocks to greece buying war ships from france and many more

 

and yes i have never denied that greece has repeatedly fucked up, so no point in saying what you have said... which on many levels are true and undeniable

 

furthermore let me give you a small hint of what is more involved in the trenches and behind the scenes

 

very small example ...an inkling of a sample if you wish ... goldman sachs remind you of anything?

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Guest eyoismos

which reminds me ... i was reading an article in bloomberg business 
Deutsche Bank Wins German Backing to Be More Like Goldman
 
yes ...the very same goldman sachs
 
not surprising really ...considering
 
Deutsche bank: fifteen shades of fraud]

 

 i dont think we really need to elaborate more about German sainthood

 

but by the same token, we need not even dare absolve greece from her deadly sins either... something we all , pretty much,have repeatedly bitched over for eons on Hellenism , let alone everywhere else

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Guest eyoismos

 

Transparency International's Global corruption barometer 2013 reveals that political parties and businesses are the most corrupt institutions in Germany

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Guest eyoismos

 

The European Union and 164 states have ratified the United Nations Convention against Corruption (UNCAC), but Germany has not

 

 i wonder why not

 

oh wait !!!!

 

 

Sep 25, 2014 - Transparency International today welcomed the German parliament's move to ratify the 2003 United Nations Convention against Corruption

 

wonder why they took so long

 

and then there is

 

 

While German law not only permitted overseas bribery but even made it tax deductible until 1999

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