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Guest FriendofGreece

What would be the best system for a government?

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Guest FriendofGreece

In your opinion, what could be considered to be the best system for a government and, of course, why? Capitalist, socialist, communist, dictatorship, etc.?

 

I don't like communism because people don't have freedoms. Although in our non-communist systems, freedoms are restricted, still we do have many freedoms.

 

But is the democratic system on the wane? When you have people like Donald Trump in the elections, I can't help wondering is that the best America has to offer?

 

http://nypost.com/2015/11/08/world-turns-away-from-a-declining-us-and-toward-china/

 

"But for me, the most interesting thing about Trudeau is how he answered a question a couple of years ago. Asked to name the nation he most admired, his answer was “China.” And his explanation? “Their basic dictatorship,” he explained, “is actually allowing them to turn their economy around on a dime.” "

 

"And now, the aide shrieked, they’re thinking of electing Donald Trump. Pointing towards the US embassy, he continued: “And all America’s ambassador wants to talk to us about is whether or not a senior member of our government will take part in a gay pride march in Budapest.” "

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Guest eyoismos

it doesnt really matter.... all systems are abused

 

there are pros and cons to each and every one of them ....in theory

 

personally i am all for the impossible utopia of "balance"

 

what is balance? indeed...that is the question :)

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If China is Trudeau's "paradise" then we're screwed as a nation  :)

 

I agree with eyoismos on this one. There are pros and cons in every system, and at the end of the day all systems are abused by those elected to serve them (or I guess in many cases ascended to power, not elected).

 

In my mind, the right "system" should be designed to serve the well-being of its people. That should be the ultimate goal. Having uber rich and uber poor is not good, and unfortunately this happens in the mecca of capitalism (America) but also in the mecca of socialism/communism (China).

 

The in between examples are also not good enough. Cuba for example has done incredible things for its people in the areas of education and medical care with very little resources and being very much isolated from the rest of the world. At the same time it really operates as a dictatorship and not as a socialist paradise. Even though the government provides for everyone so that there are not very many destitute people, as there are in the capitalist countries, most people in Cuba live meager lives, cannot travel outside Cuba, and are not really completely free to voice their opinions. This is not good.

 

The Scandinavian countries have hit a good balance in the last few decades of some type of socialist system, but even those utopias have their share of problems. Canada has been pretty good too, even though the right wing governments of the past few years screwed up the education and medical care systems big time.

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Guest FriendofGreece

Actually, I think Trudeau has a point in that "dictatorship" allows China to be efficient and achieve faster what it is set to accomplish. I guess there are things one can always learn about being more efficient. Chinese leadership is actually highly competent. Funny but the previous set of Chinese leaders consisted almost all of engineers, which is quite unusual to see in politicians. I would not call China a dictatorship, it is a communist/socialist country. Come to think of it, it is no easy task to lead 1.3 or 1.2 billion of persons. If Western leaders have trouble leading Western countries with the populations they have, imagine them at the helm of countries as populous as China or India. It would be complete disaster, considering how short vision they have.

 

Cuba is another communist/socialist country that is why it is catering for the lowest denominator, making sure that everyone has the basics. Of course, because Cuba is so poor due to the embargoes, it does not have resources to give better lives. In communist countries, the trade-off is you are fed and housed but you don't have so much freedoms. Now with more normalized relations with the US, hopefully the Cubans will be able to have better lives. Freedoms will come later on when the stomachs are fed.

 

Nowadays, there are not many communist/socialist countries left in the world. Vietnam is another example. It has done pretty well after the Vietnam War.  

 

The Nordic countries are known as models in socialist countries. I guess small populations and wealth help. But their generous social system cannot be sustained as we can see with the influx of migrants. While Greece has had to deal with the migrants these past years with so few resources, and this year to date, some 600,000 migrants have invaded small Greek islands, Sweden which is such a rich country is asking for EU help to assist them when they have only up to 190,000 migrants by the end of this year.

 

The case of Singapore is quite interesting though. Its previous leader was a kind of "dictator" who led the tiny country to become quite a successful one. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore

 

"The nation's core principles are meritocracymulticulturalism and secularism. It is noted for its effective, pragmatic and incorruptgovernance and civil service, which together with its rapid development policies, is widely cited as the "Singapore model".Gallup polls shows 84% of its residents expressed confidence in the national government, one of the highest ratings recorded. Singapore has significant influence on global affairs relative to its size, leading some analysts to classify it as a middle power. It is ranked as Asia's most influential city and 4th in the world by Forbes."

 

I wish for Greece to find such a leader.

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Guest eyoismos

in anything china and its leadership solidly reminds me of "animal farm" ....and the forever eternal phrase

""All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others""

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Guest FriendofGreece

The Guardian is one of the many Western media that are bashing China. It is no different than Greek-bashing media.

 

If the Chinese leaders were not competent, how could China have developed that much in 30 years? I know China has enormous problems like corruption, pollution, etc. but it is a very populous country and a big country. I think it has something like 56 ethnicities or minorities. But the current leaders are trying to address the problems. 

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Guest eyoismos

quick answer to that

 

ultra cheap labor and sometimes borderline slave labor, thus the "west" invested in droves, and damn the torpedos, as they say

any country that offered that is bound to get "benefits"

 

and now that china is becoming "expensive" .... the world's big boys are now looking for alernatives.

one of the reasons why india, for example is now growning at a phenominal rate, while china is strongly got into the "downturn"

 

in the former, its called communsim, in the later its called democracy

 

but ultimately its all about ...well.... to put it bluntly .... abuse of labor, .... to feed the "elite" wherever they are

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Guest FriendofGreece

I understand the cheap labour and foreign investments, but you need government policies that are set by leaders that are competent. China is in a downturn for many reasons, some of which are the lower world demand and the higher cost of labour, but also because of the shift to internal consumption and to services and away from manufacturing because of the pollution. It is a bigger economy so the growth rate is bound to be smaller. But Chinese people live slightly better because they have higher minimum salaries.

 

India of course is growing phenominally, but at a much lower base, I think India's economy is like 1/5 of China's. The Indians have to grow, they don't have a choice, otherwise their population will die of hunger.

 

Labour is always "abused", even in Western countries, albeit at a lesser level.

 

Not that I believe every Chinese leader is competent, but this article explains a bit about the experience they have to gather throughout their career. Considering the huge population, it is cut-throat competition there.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-a-bell/china-leaders-america_b_7580502.html

 

 

Jen - I think that process is followed through the forms of referendums (rather than elections) in some Nordic countries, if I remember well. I think it would be good only for small countries. In India, they just had elections in the state of Bihar, the third most populous state in India, and I think it took 2 months to carry out the elections and like a week to know the results.

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Guest eyoismos

what about good ol ancient greek democracy with a modern twist, basically a question is proposed and the general population vote using the internet 

 

you forget that sparta was also a democracy, and its privileged citizens voted on actions to take. the fact that their where a whole lot of "slaves" and a very limited citizenship is entirely another matter

 

or to put it differently ...china is also democratic and people can vote ..... providing they are registered members of the party ...and follow each and every whim and directive of the "Napoleons" of the party

but for the rest in china  ... to hell with them

 

in india ... its different.... sort off ...and yet the same - for example ...you in the wrong caste ...who gives a shit

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Guest FriendofGreece

I don't put so much faith in elections. In a democratic country, yes, we have elections, but what kind of candidates can we vote for? We have a very limited choice of candidates, so you either vote or abstain.

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Guest eyoismos

I understand the cheap labour and foreign investments, but you need government policies that are set by leaders that are competent. China is in a downturn for many reasons, some of which are the lower world demand and the higher cost of labour, but also because of the shift to internal consumption and to services and away from manufacturing because of the pollution. It is a bigger economy so the growth rate is bound to be smaller. But Chinese people live slightly better because they have higher minimum salaries.

 

India of course is growing phenominally, but at a much lower base, I think India's economy is like 1/5 of China's. The Indians have to grow, they don't have a choice, otherwise their population will die of hunger.

 

Labour is always "abused", even in Western countries, albeit at a lesser level.

 

Not that I believe every Chinese leader is competent, but this article explains a bit about the experience they have to gather throughout their career. Considering the huge population, it is cut-throat competition there.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-a-bell/china-leaders-america_b_7580502.html

 

 

quick question .... remind me again how rich and how quickly the leaders got in china.

 

they would be stupid not to "organize" the country to maximize profits for themselves first and foremost

but by the same notion ... it would be equally stupid NOT to spread it around a bit

 

its not a case of competency, it is a case of pure logic to capitalize, excuse the pun, on maximizing benefits

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Guest FriendofGreece

It is well known that the Chinese leaders are corrupt, but then tell me, a lot of politicians are corrupt also in other countries, Politicians are part of the 1%.

 

However, they are competent because from a hugely poor country after the Mao disaster, China has become the 2nd biggest economy in 30 years, lifting hundreds and hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. You must be competent to be able to achieve that because no other country has done that in history.

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Guest eyoismos

I don't put so much faith in elections. In a democratic country, yes, we have elections, but what kind of candidates can we vote for? We have a very limited choice of candidates, so you either vote or abstain.

 

if one considers the voter turnout in the so called democratic west, it is pure stupidity to abstain. because ultimately "you" get exactly what "you" asked for

 

in fact ... if one takes greece or example

 

Greek_elections_abstention_rates.jpg

 

if those that abstained where actually a party, they would have had a landslide victory, hands down

 

which just proves ... those that abstain are dumbass morons. PERIOD

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Guest FriendofGreece

If there is no candidate that one likes, I think voting at least dilutes the votes in various parties so that no one party has the majority, and then wait for the next elections. However, that is not the same as having a direct say, like referendums, for example.

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Guest eyoismos

It is well known that the Chinese leaders are corrupt, but then tell me, a lot of politicians are corrupt also in other countries, Politicians are part of the 1%.

 

However, they are competent because from a hugely poor country after the Mao disaster, China has become the 2nd biggest economy in 30 years, lifting hundreds and hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. You must be competent to be able to achieve that because no other country has done that in history.

30 years BECAUSE of the west pouring untold investment into china and to manufacture FOR the west...at least initially

but like i said ... its not a case of competency, it is a case of pure logic to capitalize, excuse the pun, on maximizing benefits

the amazing rise of germany and hr economy ,for example, was no different... in real terms...again .... pure cold logic dictates the so called magic of economic growth at wild and even outrageous rates. china was and is no different. they just had a massive population to take advantage of everything in a bigger way

 

take another example .... japan .... i remember the days when "made in japan" labels on products where thought of with disdain and contempt .... and yet ...well... look what people think now of what made in japan means

 

its all about "economy of numbers"

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Guest eyoismos

If there is no candidate that one likes, I think voting at least dilutes the votes in various parties so that no one party has the majority, and then wait for the next elections. However, that is not the same as having a direct say, like referendums, for example.

 

my philosophy is quite simple... and always has been ... look at the individual who best represents "you" in the electoral  municipality or election area or whatever, no matter how bad they might seem, because they are better than the other alternatives  ...and to hell with the party he/she/it belongs to.

 

and the party that eventually wins, once the wheat has been separated from the chaff  ....deserve it

 

problem is .... the vast majority EVERYWHERE vote, or actually bother to vote,  for the party, and to hell with the representatives

 

well guess what "we" end up with ... duh!

 

we are talking a subtle difference here

 

but ultimately, those that abstain, i say to them ... shut the fuck up. you got exactly what you wanted

 

and i have on several occasions

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Guest eyoismos

If there is no candidate that one likes, I think voting at least dilutes the votes in various parties so that no one party has the majority, and then wait for the next elections. However, that is not the same as having a direct say, like referendums, for example.

 

 

actually i like what switzerland does ... its probably the world's capital when it comes to referendums

 

 

The votes on referendums are always held on a Sunday, typically three or four times a year, and in most cases, the votes concern several referendums at the same time, often at different political levels (federal, cantonal, municipal). Referendums are also often combined with elections.

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Guest FriendofGreece

If it were just a matter of labour and investments, then why would some countries not succeed, like Brazil or African countries, for example, don't they have both?

 

I don't understand the comparison with Japan, it has quite a small population.

 

Btw, if I remember well, 30 years ago, India was in a better position than China. India also had a lot of foreign investments but they were later withdrawn by the foreign investors. India did not go anywhere with those investments and the huge labour pool it had.

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Guest eyoismos

its called incentives ... and a "disciplined" slave labor... as in ... no real demand for rights ...as in ...what the hell is that?

 

as for japan ... think about it ... destroyed by ww2, unbelievable money was then poured in

and then we have a culture of dedication to authority no matter what, but by the same idea, authority takes cares of its minions

 

but minions they where, the general populace that is

 

so yes ... the comparison is in many ways valid

 

in fact they made their name by taking others ideas and making it better

something that china is certainly doing the same thing,  but in the very early initial stages

but in the mean time ... made in china ... what does that mean to the average joe throughout the world?

you guessed it .... same as "made in japan" meant 30 years ago ..... rubbish - japan managed to bypass it most admirably .... china still to go through that phase of respectability ...and i mean chinese products

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Guest FriendofGreece

I think it is called hard working people. They fight for their survival and the development of their country, unlike in India or African countries, people are not as prone to hard work. Of course, Chinese products are low standard, but they are cheap and allow a lot of poor and not so poor people around the world to afford them. The difference with Japan is that China manufactures almost everything. 

 

Interesting article:

 

https://philosophynow.org/issues/101/Could_Platos_Republic_Work_In_China

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Guest eyoismos

hard working slaves who wouldnt dare say or do anything, because of the dreaded "consequences",  is more appropriate

 

see for example the number of suicides in the company that apple, amongst others,  "recruited" before the shit hit the fan and factory practices in china was exposed to the world

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Guest FriendofGreece

I think it is easy for us to criticize those people. But if you look at the huge competition in the labour market, I can understand why they withstand the hard working conditions and low pay. The Western countries of course squeeze as much as they can, and when the salaries rose, they moved to other cheaper countries. Still, and to come back to the competence of the leaders, they have to be flexible in order maneuver under the new conditions to sustain growth for their people. The Chinese are resourceful, no doubt, that is why they have kept their civilization after thousands of years. 

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Guest FriendofGreece

Eyoismos, I cannot see the pictures. It is strange but when you post in this format (jpg), the pics do not show.

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Guest eyoismos

sorry to say but neither of you are quite correct. well .... sort off ...

 

some sites dont like or allow hot links

 

simple as that

 

will find alternatives to fix.

 

having said that... in the case above ...it worked fine for me yesterday ...but today i noticed it didnt...so i thought ...maybe its gotta do with clearing everything in my history when done with my browser ....

 

and in the process i discovered another "strange" idiosyncrasy ... if i put the links of the said political cartoons on a separate tab in my browser.... (thus creating the "required" history) .... voila ... i see the images in my post

 

not to worry ... will find alternative links - and will correct

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Guest eyoismos

fixed

 

dont you love the internet

 

where alleged copyrights and attempts at protectionism mean jack shit, and there is always alternatives

 

:)

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