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America just got greater.

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Canada seems to be closer to north central Europe in this respect. Here in the states you get full benefits if you work for a larger corporation. And even among the largest there are black sheep, like Walmart for example. This may differ to some extend from region to region, but here in San Antonio there are only a hand full of serious corporate employers. Most jobs are at or slightly above minimum wage and part time. So the fact that San Antonio has a super high employment rate doesn't mean much.

 

Ah...you got to love American capitalism  :D You got to love how American capitalists (like Trump...) take care of the American people.

What's priceless is that those same American people who are screwed over by the American capitalism system for years voted in power a representative of this same system which is screwing them! Truly priceless!  :D

 

Talking about tariffs: What Trump suggested is probably the stupidest thing I've heard in years. Probably stupider than his suggestion of building a wall across the Mexican border.

 

What on earth makes you think that if Trump slaps a 24% tax on all imports will keep the cost of imported goods at the same level? This is absurd. If he slaps a tax of 24% on something then this something will go up in price by 24%, it's as simple as that.

 

On top of this, what makes you think that any large corporation will invest within the US for manufacturing jobs? There is a reason why large corporations moved manufacturing outside the US a long long time ago. As an example, let's say that it currently costs Nike 10 cents to manufacture a t-shirt in China. Why on earth would they move production back to the US where it would cost them $10 (or more!) to manufacture the same t-shirt? This is 101 capitalism. What Trump promised to those 50 year old + morons is not going to happen. This is not how capitalism works. I guess his voters will have to learn this the hard way.

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You are missing the point because you can't get it into your head that Trump did not win. He got even slightly less votes than McCain in 2008 or Romney in 2012. The same roughly 60 mil who voted for McCain and Romney voted now for Trump. But the 70 mil who voted for Obama in 2008 did not Vote for Clinton. Around 100 mil didn't vote at all. This was not a win for Trump it was a loss for Clinton.

 

Why?

What did Obama do in his 8 years to "Unscrew" average Americans?

What did Bill Clinton do?

 

If you guessed NOTHING you guessed right. The angry white Tea-Party-Evangelical crowd always votes republican. McCain, Romney, Trump... doesn't matter to them. That's not where the election was lost. Common sense people didn't come out to vote for Clinton cause there was no point to it. Her campaign was content to have a "Better than Trump Candidate". This was just not good enough for the many voters who didn't bother to show.

 

The 24% tariff example I mentioned was about Greece. But since you asked Why should foreign investment come to the US I'll tell you.

 

Cause the US is the largest and most profitable single consumer market in the world.

Because the US is, and has always been, a very attractive investment market for foreign Capital and a lot of foreign corps (VW, BMW, Toyota, Honda...) are already producing in the US. A smart tariff policy could easily increase manufacturing in the US.

 

This could add 10 USD on tariffs to an item Nike has produced for 10 cents in Bangladeshi slave labour. And if Nike wants to sell this item for 100 USD in the US they will gladly pay tariffs or consider to move production to the US. Otherwise they can go sell it in India. Lets see how that affects their profit margin.

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Do you think any American will pay $100 for a t-shirt which has a tag saying "made in USA" as opposed to paying $10 for the same t-shirt if it's made in China? The "made in USA" days are long gone. Raising taxes and adding tariffs didn't work for Syriza in Greece, and definitely not going to work for the US.

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I can appreciate the example of Greece where there would be a 24% tariff on imports and VAT being abolished. Basically, tariffs are used in developing countries to protect budding domestic industries and would be appropriate in the case of Greece. 

 

Why I think tariffs are bad in the case of US:

 

If tariffs are slapped on across the board on all Chinese or Mexican imports, the US consumers are the first to suffer because not only they don't have jobs, but now everything they buy (since almost everything is produced by China) will cost at least 45% or 35% more. I say at least because the US corporations will make sure to make a profit too on the tariffs. It will take many years before the US, if it opens up factories, can produce things to replace everything that China or Mexico is producing now. That being said, there are many developing countries, other than China and Mexico, that produce low cost products. Will tariffs be slapped on them too? Won't they be going to complain at the World Trade Organization? 

 

China will be slapping tariffs on US exports in retaliation, or will switch to buy things from the EU, Africa, South America, etc., instead, such as airplanes, food, etc. The Chinese will make do without US products and instead concentrate on innovating their own products, etc. Who knows, maybe tariffs will be good for China at the end instead of punishing? The Chinese in any event consider challenges as also opportunities. 

 

As for the US consumers, if Nike starts producing in the US T-shirts for $10 and charges $100, how will the consumers pay if all they got is factory jobs at minimum wages? As long as the government does not do anything to control the profits, the consumers are the losers either way. Why I suggested the US government to tax the profits is because taxation is a domestic thing while tariffs are more like an "international" thing that can be appealed to the WTO. 

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Do you think any American will pay $100 for a t-shirt which has a tag saying "made in USA" as opposed to paying $10 for the same t-shirt if it's made in China? The "made in USA" days are long gone. Raising taxes and adding tariffs didn't work for Syriza in Greece, and definitely not going to work for the US.

He does pay 100 for it in the US if it has a NIKE label on it and that's the problem. So what exactly are you as a progressive liberal defending? The right of NIKE to exploit labourers in Bangladesh and skin, the admittedly idiot, consumers in the US? Is that your notion of free trade?

So where does that live American Job seekers? Work for Chinese wages or die is that it? Oh I forgot they could still become Uber drivers. Or maybe they should all go to college and become Doctors. Or maybe they should all go to NBC and get 630 k a year gigs there like Chelsea did. Do you have any Idea how many young people there are here in San Antonio alone who pile up 200 k in student loans and once they get their degree they end up making 10 - 15 USD an hour in the service industry. Is globalisation good for them?

 

And Syriza didn't impose tariffs on ANYTHING. They increased taxes on production AND, more importantly, Consumption (VAT).

The difference with VAT is that it affects all products, domestic and imported. It is a great way to increase revenue for a government that doesn't care about domestic production and jobs. The Government cashes in no matter where the shit comes from. Import duties on the other hand affect only imported goods. Introducing those duties while abolishing VAT creates a competitive advantage for Greek producers without increasing the cost for Greek consumers. You don't seem to get this and neither does Syriza. That's why we are getting nowhere.

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Anyway. No point on arguing on any of this yet. The guy is a tool. He's saying one thing one day and then the complete opposite the next. Nobody knows where he really stands on many important issues. We'll have lots to talk about in January when he moves into the White House.

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I never said he is great. To the contrary him becoming POTUS has a surreal look and feel to it. But there are lots of issues that Clinton, or if you like the "Progressive Camp", in the US and elsewhere, doesn't care about.

 

Brexit wins -> it was uneducated old whites.

Trump wins -> it was uneducated old whites.

If Lepen wins -> it was uneduated old whites.

 

The problem with that:

 

1. it ain't true

2. not even acknowledging that progressive perceptions may be off doesn't help

 

Slapping some makeup on a She-Goblin and saying vote for her cause she ain't the He-Goblin with the crazy hair is not enough to get people to engage.

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It is interesting to see hoe this election redefines the "WE".

 

WE the free world stand for tolerance, open borders, against racism, bigotry and protectionism.

And yet... the most significant part of our "WE" elected a man who has no problem with racist verbiage.

 

Did the WE just get smaller? Is it WE the EU-Europeans now? Minus the UK that is.

 

Bulgaria just brought the Russian fraction back in from the cold. In Hungary a Constitutional amendment that makes Trump look like a pro immigration activist failed 2/3 majority by 2 votes. Not because the liberal opposition prevented it. No, it was the far right that rejected it for not going far enough. And there is anxiety building as the elections in France are approaching. So where does this leave the "WE"?

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It would be interesting to know since when the concepts of tolerance, open borders, anti-racism, anti-bigotry, anti-protectionism, multiculturalism, human rights, etc. exist in Western countries. I would tend to think that it is easier to have those concepts when you are at the top and above the others who do not have much like you or have nothing, after colonizations, wars, etc. Those ideals come stumbling down fast when the others rise up and encroach on your privileges.

 

With the ageing of Western countries and their minimal birth rates, it is a matter of survival economically, or simply survival due to the clash of civilizations that is happening in the EU. Is it even too late now?

 

Is free trade the culprit? I don't think so. The blue workers, the White uneducated men do not lose out because of people in Asia, in South America, in Africa, etc., stealing their jobs. Those people have been and are still working at slave's pay and in slave conditions, while polluting their rivers and air for the Westerners to have goods at dirt cheap prices that they pay with debt. The real culprit is the never-ending greed of the 1%. Unfortunately, the same 1% is the ones controlling your governments. What will more populist governments be able to do to fix the inequalities, I don't know.

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Here you go again with the "White Uneducated old Men". What about the "Young Brown uneducated Men" do you pretend that they don't exist?

Unfortunately they do exist, are far more numerous than the Uneducated White Men, way angrier and way more violent.

 

Did you forget the rioting, looting minorities in London?

Did you forget the 10's of thousand of European Jihad Tourists?

Did you forget the recent Attacks in France?

 

So yeah there are already angry Brown men who picked up arms. And what would you expect? The parents of those guys came to Europe for a better life and now their children find themselves in the Ghetto.

 

Around 120 mil EU Europeans (1 in 4 overall but 3 in 4 among young "Brown" men btw) is counted among the working poor. Wage dumping is to blame for that. And the reason behind that is low wages in the developing countries.

 

The elite are getting richer by the minute though. And the mechanics of that process that exploits labourers in developing country and enriches the elite while it impoverishes millions in Europe is called Free Trade.

 

And you say Free Trade is above suspicion?

Isn't this a bit dogmatic?

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Don't get too hung up on the White uneducated men versus young Brown uneducated men, maybe you could lump them in the blue collars.

 

If we did not have free trade, please tell me what you think the world would have been now?

 

I think one thing for sure is that the elite would have been much less rich. What about the poor countries? What about the rich countries?

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India and China would have famines and their people would die by the millions while the European worker wouldn't have to compete against slave labour. That's how it used to be up until the 70's. It was great for Europeans and Americans.

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Yes, those were the good times for Europeans and Americans. I heard that US auto workers had big fat wages. There were a lot of unions, and don't ask the workers to do something outside of what is specifically their tasks to do. 

 

Why did they start free trade, do you know?

 

And do you think it is a good idea for the US to abolish free trade now (or renegotiating the trade deals) and putting tariffs on Chinese and Mexican imports like Trump proposes to?

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Let me tell you one thing. as an American of Hellenic descent, I may be considered white male, but that is NOT why I VOTED TRUMP. As previously mentioned by others, prior administrations, cared about global issues leaving domestic issues fester. Children going hungry, homeless dying on the streets, infrastructure crumbling, while spending billions in international "adventures" of their own creation. They would demonize a situation or a leader by using their lapdog press, and use this information as a pretext for interventions.

 

We heard that story many times and we have waken up. Time to let a NON politician give it a try. He said all the right things, and the people believed. I just hope it was not a siren song.

I have listened to him talk for 10 to 15 years prior, and found him to be genuine and honest. He speaks his mind, regardless the consequences.

 

Most politicians ar from poor backgrounds and have to consider ther after the politicking lives, which makes them vulnerable to being bought. He is a billionaire. You can't buy buy him for a few miserly millions. 

Honest? Are you kidding me?

 

NEVER have I seen a politician lie so much, never.

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/lists/people/comparing-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-truth-o-met/

 

He was the worst politician out of the 15 running from the Republican side, and there were some horrendous candidates as well as some good ones.

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Free trade started as a political gambit. After the Vietnam war Henry Kissinger wanted to engage the Chinese, Indians etc... and Isolate the Soviet Union. So free trade got started at a stage where the Chinese and Indians had nothing to Trade other than raw materials. Over time Investment came in and manufacturing got started.

 

Which, by itself, was not a bad thing. In some cases the economic development of those countries was matched by the development of wages and internal consumption. There is a historic precedent: Korean, Japanese, Taiwanese, worker is earning wages comparable to those of a European or American and also consumes at comparable levels. There is nothing wrong with having free trade with such countries. Its a give and take.

 

But there are also China, India, Bangladesh, Pakistan and what not. In those are countries labour conditions are almost indistinguishable from slavery. Domestic consumption is very low while production is sky high and dirt cheap. So why should the workers in Europe suffer due to institutionalised "Slavery" in India and China?

 

Tariffs are a MUST on trade with countries that follow such policies. Lets not forget that it was Tariffs that moved Japan to increase domestic consumption and increase imports to the point that it is now a net importer of goods and services. China is also slowly moving towards that direction and will move even faster if tariffs come into play.

 

India, Bangladesh and such are just too "Feudal" to ever get there. As export markets they are completely irrelevant. Slam some fat tariffs on them and lets see what happens. They may, against my expectations, start to think about the living conditions of their own people and build up wages and consumption or their Feudal Lords may divest themselves completely and move to Europe. Their money is there already.

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This American, that has voted at every election since 1992, is completely disappointed and embarrassed at what happened. This by far is the worst election in recent US history. His is a racist, sexual predator, a complete embarrassment! 

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This American, that has voted at every election since 1992, is completely disappointed and embarrassed at what happened. This by far is the worst election in recent US history. His is a racist, sexual predator, a complete embarrassment!

Why is that?

The people have spoken. Is that bad?

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Japan which was once thought to surpass the US has had a stagnant economy for long. Is it the tariffs that destroyed its economy?

 

China has no choice but to increase its domestic consumption with its growth slowing down. If US tariffs are imposed, its economy will be hit, however I think US exports will be hit too. There are a lot of income inequalities in China, hopefully the Chinese government will be able to take care of its poor people.

 

India is trying to be the next China with its "Make in India". The US are very friendly with India because they use it as a counterpoint against China. I don't think the US will slap tariffs on India. In any event, I think India has missed the boat on being the next "factory of the world" because of robotization.

 

Which raises the question of what jobs would the US bring back? The jobs are gone. If factories are open in the US, there will be robots with only a few people to control them, there will not be mass hirings to work in factories.

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In these elections, the two candidates were nothing stellar. One thing with Trump though is that he seems to backtrack so soon on what he said about the wall, Obamacare, etc. I am fine with him nevertheless as long as he does not make war.

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Why is that?

The people have spoken. Is that bad?

 

Yes, of course it's bad. The people spoke in Greece and in the UK too, and they messed up in both cases. Politicians have become "entertainers". The most successful politician/entertainer is the one who gets most of the voters of his party out to vote. That's all it takes to win an election. You don't need to have a realistic political platform, in fact you don't need a platform at all. As it was proved by Trump you don't even need to say anything of value, just say stupid things, lies, whatever comes in mind, and then the next day say the complete opposite. It still doesn't matter. As long as you get the sheep out in droves to vote you're still good.

 

It happened in Greece, it then happened in the UK, now it happened in the US too. This is not good news for democracy...

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BS

 

That stupid Talk of the "Robotized" Industry has been around since the 70's it wasn't true then and it isn't true now. Sure automation has an impact but manufacturing still remains labour intensive.

 

If one were to follow your argument then it is only a matter of time before the Chinese and Indian slave labourer goes extinct. And since the Robots who are going to replace them don't earn wages or purchase (neither Western nor Eastern) consumer goods the Wage Earner, and spender, has become a thing of the past all over the world. So whom will those robots be producing for? Whom will the drones deliver to? The self driving cars carry? Are you envisioning consumer robots too?

 

Is that the new "Tariff free World Economy" you dream of?

 

Get real.

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Yes, of course it's bad. The people spoke in Greece and in the UK too, and they messed up in both cases. Politicians have become "entertainers". The most successful politician/entertainer is the one who gets most of the voters of his party out to vote. That's all it takes to win an election. You don't need to have a realistic political platform, in fact you don't need a platform at all. As it was proved by Trump you don't even need to say anything of value, just say stupid things, lies, whatever comes in mind, and then the next day say the complete opposite. It still doesn't matter. As long as you get the sheep out in droves to vote you're still good.

 

It happened in Greece, it then happened in the UK, now it happened in the US too. This is not good news for democracy...

I understand your confusion.

 

"You don't have to say anything of VALUE"... but what exactly is a value? Is there such a thing as objective Values?

 

Well there isn't. Nothing has ANY value in NATURE. Value is a cognitive construct that exists only in the mind of the sentient being that does the evaluating. As such all values are totally subjective.

 

Someone may be "Saying Nothing of Value" according to your evaluation, which is based on what serves you best of course. What is of no value to you may be very valuable (beneficial) to somebody else. And who says that your interest is above his?

 

Democracy is meant to decide what is of Value to a society and what is not. The contest took place, according to the rules, and those who wanted it more won. Now they have a President who'll, hopefully, lead in accordance with the values he campaigned on. The end.

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Robotization is real, it may take 15-20 years, but it is coming. 

 

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/544201/china-wants-to-replace-millions-of-workers-with-robots/

 

Even the Indians recognize the problem of robotization:

 

http://qz.com/771498/if-india-wants-to-become-a-superpower-it-has-to-stop-trying-to-become-the-next-china/

 

By the way, I don't dream of a tariff-free world economy the way you may mean it. I am just saying that if the elite gets richer because of free trade then tax them more on their profits, not less, no matter where those profits are earned. That way it would not make a difference whether they have the products being produced in the US or elsewhere. As long as it is a US corporation, tax it on US tax on its world profits.

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Robotization is real, it may take 15-20 years, but it is coming. 

 

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/544201/china-wants-to-replace-millions-of-workers-with-robots/

I'm doing, among other things, micro controller programming for robotics applications. Thanks for letting me know that robotics is real.

But people are real too. And it is their wants and needs that create an Economy, robots included. If an economy doesn't provide wages there cant be consumption, without consumption there is no need for production. An economy that does not provide Jobs and living wages is either going down or survives as a parasite. Tariffs are supposed to address the latter.

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I understand your confusion.

 

"You don't have to say anything of VALUE"... but what exactly is a value? Is there such a thing as objective Values?

 

Well there isn't. Nothing has ANY value in NATURE. Value is a cognitive construct that exists only in the mind of the sentient being that does the evaluating. As such all values are totally subjective.

 

Someone may be "Saying Nothing of Value" according to your evaluation, which is based on what serves you best of course. What is of no value to you may be very valuable (beneficial) to somebody else. And who says that your interest is above his?

 

Democracy is meant to decide what is of Value to a society and what is not. The contest took place, according to the rules, and those who wanted it more won. Now they have a President who'll, hopefully, lead in accordance with the values he campaigned on. The end.

 

That's a pretty silly argument. I won't go into a philosophical debate around what's objective and what's subjective, but I think we can all agree that someone saying in public that "he's so great that he can grab a woman by the pussy" is not a smart or decent thing to say. This is not subjective. This is something commonly accepted in our day and age as being a stupid remark.

 

Also blatantly lying and flip-flopping is not something subjective either. IN our day and age we have something called video and audio recording and one can easily go back in time and see or hear what Trump said about different subjects and pinpoint all his lies and fli-flopping throughout this election. Again, not subjective.

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Is it silly to say that values are constructs meant to serve the interests of those who do the evaluating?

 

You have no issue with slave wages in China and suicide nets on FoxCon factories.

And why should you? Cheap cellphones and Tablets are of value to you. And why should you share the concerns of blue collar workers in the US? You are not one of them. Penalising slave labour in China by imposing tariffs is not in your best interest. It may end up making things more expensive for you.

 

And of course you are all pro immigration. You are an immigrant after all. So are your values not self serving?

Nothing wrong with that. I'm the same way, in fact I share your values to a great extend but that doesn't prevent me from looking beyond my own situation and trying to understand other peoples perspectives.

 

So, Trump said "Pussy" while he was running his big mouth in front of a camera. So what? Bill Clinton was sticking cigars in Monica's pussy in the oval office and went on to bomb an Aspirin factory in Khartoum to distract from the stains he left on Monica's dress. No problem there right?

 

University of Berkley offers classes on Tupac's "Poetics". The guy who made a song about "the bitch" he rapped after he got convicted. No problem there either right? How could you criticise the "Strapped" Messenger of Love who has been elevated to a major role model to the well educated hard working afro-american youth? Especially after "their champion" lost this election to verbal pussy grabbing Trump and the ignorant hate filed white man.

 

And no. I'm not a defender of Trump or "The White Man". I'm neither white nor black nor brown. I'm an Anatolian with a sense for realities.

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FoG:

 

I am just saying that if the elite gets richer because of free trade then tax them more on their profits, not less, no matter where those profits are earned. That way it would not make a difference whether they have the products being produced in the US or elsewhere. As long as it is a US corporation, tax it on US tax on its world profits.

Don't blame everything on the elite. I'm looking at it from a Greek perspective and I see that India has tariffs on:

 

Olive oil - 45%

Nut and seed oils - 100%

Juice concentrates and non alcoholic beverages - 30%

Wine and alcoholic beverages - 100%

Mastix and other tree gums and resins - 45%

Pasta and Durum wheat products - 30%

Shoes and clothing - 15%

Construction steel and pipes - 15%

Aluminum products - 10%

Tobaco products - 30%

Spirits - 150%

Refined Sugar - 100%

 

(http://www.cbec.gov.in/htdocs-cbec/customs/cs-tariff2015-16/cst2015-16-idx)

 

Those are things Greece produces. So tell me again why would it be wrong for Greece to slap a 45% Import duty on all goods imported from India? Should I care more about India than about my own people?

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So, Trump said "Pussy" while he was running his big mouth in front of a camera. So what? Bill Clinton was sticking cigars in Monica's pussy in the oval office and went on to bomb an Aspirin factory in Khartoum to distract from the stains he left on Monica's dress. No problem there right?

 

When did I ever say that Clinton was a saint? Whatever he did though, he did it in the privacy of his house/office, or whatever, so it's none of my concern. Clinton never bragged publicly to a radio or TV station about all this, even though at the end of the day the sexual relationships of two consenting adults shouldn't be anyone's business.

 

On the other hand, we have Trump publicly saying socially unacceptable things like grabbing a woman by the pussy (without the woman's consent...) or screwing his daughter or whatever. These are socially unacceptable things to do (or even say that you'd like to do).

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Oh that PC of yours. Saying "socially unacceptable" things is bad BUT a president screwing his intern and then bombing a country and killing dozens to distract from the media uproar is fine. And if state department emails are found on the notebook of Abedins ex husband in the course of a teenage girl sexting investigation?

 

Who cares. Let Hilary be commander in chief while any member of the armed service would face court martial for circulating work related document outside the sanctioned channels.

 

Have you listened to some rap lyrics. Totally acceptable. No way this shit is meant to demean women. Aren't you a bit ... selective in your sensitivities?

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Are you comparing what you and I and a rap singer say about women - or whatever other issue -  with what the president of the US is saying about that same issue in public? Are you delusional?  :D

 

If you'd claim that you like to "grab women by the pussy" in this forum nobody would blink an eye. Sure, some people might get offended but nobody would really care. You are a nobody (as everyone else in this forum).

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