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Guest Satyr

Λιαντινις ο, ξεχασμένος στοχαστής.

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Guest Satyr
Κατάγομαι από την Λακωνία, όχι μακριά από το σημείο που πείρε τη ζωή του.

Κι’αν γράφω στην αγγλική η ψυχή μου είναι Ελληνική, μα η ορθογραφία μου αφόρητη.

 

 

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Guest Satyr

Liantinis, an overview

 

From Helen to  Homer up until Elitis..

 

 

 

Philosophical considerations on death...

 

 

 

Το αληθινό πρόσωπο της αρχαίας Σπάρτης

 

 

 

Πέθανε ο θεός

 

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Guest Satyr

 

 

""Who would dare say I believe in god?

 

Who would dare say I do not believe in god?" 

 

That was Faust's response to Margaret's Question.

 

This statement is the only viable human answer that may be provided to the question. It is the response that, according to the rules of Logic, and by negating the principle of contradiction, accepts a third possibility, while canceling out the first and the second. As was also revealed in the field of Physics in 1927 through the Uncertainty Principle, Faust's retort to terbium non dater is a resounding:

 

"Tertium dater!"  there is a third possibility. "Somewhere between Tuesday and Wednesday, you must have lost your true day…." as the poet Elytis wrote before he grew old and senile. 

 

If I am human, in the sense that I am conscious of my limits and aware of how profound the problem of existence is, it is impossible to provide a different answer to Margaret's Question. 

 

If I respond, "Yes! I do believe in god", I turn instantly into a fool. For I then accept, in a cold-hearted and close-minded way, something that I do not know as the whole truth. I have become dogmatic. And then science will automatically cast me out of its limits with the remark: For you are being unreasonable.

 

If I respond, "No! I do not believe in god", I turn instantly into a fool. for I then accept, in a cold-hearted and close-minded way, something that I do not know as the whole truth. I have become dogmatic. And then science will automatically cast me out of its limits with the remark: for you are being unreasonable. 

 

What is then left to reply? This constitutes the fine point that gives birth to the inexhaustible fertility of the problem. 

 

Goethe's spirit beckons us to consider the following. Everything you have left and everything that is given to you is this fine point, the infinitesimally small between the yes and the no, for you to expand on, to stretch, to enlarge, to deepen. To manipulate and experiment with, to try out, to sweat over, to agonize about, so that from this tiny point you may forge a dimension, and an expanse, and continuity, space and time. 

 

That is, to create from between the yes and the no, life, truth and identity. 

 

It is necessary to regard this point lying at the nadir of impossibility and utopia, between the yes and the no, in such a way so that it may absorb throughout life, our own lives. Which means our everyday concern, our intellectual momentum, our existential readiness, our moral action. 

 

Considered on a level of mythical symbolisms, I would translate Goethe's spiritual beckoning like this: 

 

You are sailing through the Symplegades, the Clashing Rocks of your quest, endlessly splitting and coming together again. Take heed that you do not get crushed. Along with the Argonauts.

You are rolling the boulder of your questions uphill, from the base of the mountain to the snow-capped peak, only to watch it tumble down again, repeating this endlessly. Take heed not to lose heart. Along with Sisyphus.

With hands bound behind your back you bend over the pond to quench your thirst, yet the waters recede on every attempt. Take heed that you do not die of thirst. Along with Tantalus.

 

And in a context of accountability regarding our individual opinions, Faust's answer to Margaret's Question has this to tell us:

 

Whosoever believes in god, carried inside him a dead god.

 

Whosoever does not believe in god, carries inside him a dead human.

 

Whosoever believes and does not believe in god, carries inside him the living law of nature. In a simple manner, easy to appreciate, and within the limits of man is the miracle of the world made manifest. 

 

If our existential outfit, which is to say our logical faculty, imagination and intuition, feelings and passions, does not exceed the capacity of our natural limits; it it is aware of and able to restrain us within the boundaries of our natural framework; if it does not diffuse into the chaos of exaggeration, this blindness the ancient Greek tragics called Hubris, then we have no other option but to subscribe to the reply that Faust gave Margaret:

 

Seek after the unknown. Knock on the doorless wall and seek passage. Attempt to transmute your befuddlement into creation, and your humanity into redemption. 

For the virtuous man, god, the supreme being, will always hover between the yes and the no. It will specify the point of eternal inquest and of incessant questioning. 

 

But neither Goethe nor Dostoevsky were the first to give form to this concept. For they both trod through open gates. Twenty centuries before, a great Greek tragic had already cast the form. Margaret's Question was originally recited in Iambic meter by Euripides the Athenian in the tragedy Helen (412 BC):

 

"What is god, and what is not god? And can there be something in between?

Who ever did these questions ponder, and not found the end to be far and distant." 

 

And what it is, after all, is but this: A human being on the Earth, precariously existing between life and death but for a fleeting instant, yet incessantly struggling to understand the meaning of its existence in the cold vastness of the universe.

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Guest Satyr

 

 

For the Greeks, Pan symbolized the surge of desire in nature. His significance was that stirring in the depths of beings debilitating and hedonistic, binding together the charges of clouds, trees, beasts, men. 

He was an incarnation quivering in the fiery stillness of desire. An unadulterated force of barbaric virility. He expressed instances of irrepressible sexual urges, those that overwhelm the grass and flowers as they burst and bloom in thousand fragrant colors each successive springtime. 

Pan was a representation of the Libido of nature. He was a faithful reflection of the indomitable power of the animal instinct for life and being. To the point that only a handful of poets get a fleeting feeling of it and those who have heard death's beckoning. 

 

Those who have heard death's quiet beckoning. For Pan was the god of goats but was also the god of rams. And these are raw material for the building blocks of tragedy. That extreme ethical and aesthetically achievement and cultural asset of the Greeks, that deals with life and death in equal measure. 

 

The Greek god Pan personifies the spirit of the wild and the crude code of animal markings. He is protector of the scintillating whispers between stars, flittering over forests steeped in darkness. He reveals himself through the trembling of silver leaves as the white poplar tree sways in the wind. He pulsates with the rhythmic flapping of the wings of a butterfly in Peking, with California reaping the whirlwind. 

 

With his eerie hunting group and his panic dear, Pan accompanies the paganism of the ancient world. He represents the web that unites the soul of man with the soul of the world in an endless nuptial hymn, bound together by the music of his magic flute. Its last reverberations still audible in the Hintengesang of Beethoven's Pastoral. 

Pan was a multifarious and primordial deity. like Apollo with this apollonian, Dionysus with his dionysian, Zeus with his olympian element. The foundation of his fundamental character represented the dominant characteristic of the classical Greek: a type of anthropology that knew how to constantly thrive on nature's erection. On the incessant wax and waning of the moon. At the halo of the peak of the male member. 

 

The death of Pan, together with the demise of the classical world, also signaled the death of man brought up by natural education. 

Antiquity perished, and so did natural man. The new type of man that surfaced with Christianity and later with European civilization is unnatural, in the sense that his relationship is not with nature but with himself. 

 

This transition or constriction parallels the evolution of tragedy. in Attic tragedy, man fought against his fate. In Shakespeare's tragedies, man fought against his fellow man. in modern tragedy, man fights against himself. the progression is from the open field to the city, from the city to the house, from the house to the room in the house. 

The ancient Greeks, being natural men, bravely accepted what we today deny on the pretext of postponement. Yet we will never be able to affect the weather report by going on strike. Nor can we banish old age with the help of our institutions.

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Guest Satyr

 

 

The power driving the fountain's water to ascend, to expand continuously, and to not be overwhelmed by its own weight so that it flips over and falls, this pose that makes it so that it can resist the urge of its own gravity, is the power of the original explosion. It is the pressure that accompanies the original explosion until this very day. 

 

The 3K background radiation is the afterglow of the Big Bang; a remnant of that explosion that has cooled down and still lives on today. It is what remains of the original ultra-hot explosion after 13.7 billion years.

 

The 3K background radiation, which since then the Big Bang has set in opposition to the force of gravity, makes it so, so that the water from our "fountain" continues to rise and expand; so that the galaxies do not collapse on one another and the direction of the world does not revert back to its hot origin and to a Big Crunch. That is to say, so that the universe does not start contracting. The 3K background radiation is the strength that the titan Atlas endlessly calls forth in order to carry the weight of the world on his shoulders.

 

"The sublime leads its audience not by reason, but by ecstasy."

 

And in order to stand by the wonders of the fountain with due respect and some youthful playfulness, one needs to appreciate the virtue of oldness. We must be able to endure the fate that the intoxication with a love of life carries with it. 

We must tread in light as fame treads in darkness. Hermits adorned by a maiden's hand

The brightly lit temple of Aphaea in Aegina on the one side, and on the other, the monastery of St. Eleousa on the island of Lake Ioamina, with the obnoxious illiterate nun who chases away pregnant women because she says they have been "spoiled". 

Superficially, on the documents and in name only are we Greeks. But underneath, in our very essence and our animate matter, we are Jews. 

And we should not be deceived by the simplistic arguments promoted by various priests and preachers that, supposedly, Christianity is one thing, Judaism another. Or that Orthodoxy is one thing, Roman-Catholicism another. Such claims are but fraudulent sophistries and overstretched naiveté. 

All those that insist upon such foolishness, are like those who claim that whores are different from a discus thrower. But they are both athletes. 

We modern Greeks resemble our ancient ancestors only in form. 

Theodosius destroyed temples, ravaged ancient statues, closed down stadiums, theaters, Greek schools. All the sources that were the lifestream of the hellenic way of life. This is why he is remembered as "the Great". Destroyers, forgers, vandals of the Hellenic idea. 

But there is another voice, persistently whispering from the shadows, that all the brutalities the Christians inflicted upon the Greeks mean nothing in the end for those that did not become Jewish-Greeks but remained hellenic-Greeks. It rises from a distant place and is only heard by a few:

 

"Just because we tore their statues down,

and cast them from their temples, 

does not mean that the gods are dead."

 

This is Cavafy, dear reader, not some miser. Not some invented god. And the poem is called Ionian. It is not called Cherubicon.

 

The dissolution and extinguishing of the classical Greek by Jewish0minded Christians lasted from the time of Theodosius until the time of Empress Eudoxia. Up to 843 AD, with the official restitution of the icons. 

So Greeks only by name and superficially. And Jews to the bone, the blood, the heart, the intestines and the bile. Herein lies the key, the reason and the cause of the national schizophrenia.

 

But ask the women to stop the lamentations. And shed no more tears for Orestes. For somewhere deep inside us all, the Greeks lie hidden. And they wait. 

We saw it with Theodorakis and Solomos. We saw it with Kapodistrias and "Liogeniti". We saw it with Trikoupis and later in the Balkan wars. We saw it with Gorogopotamos, with Cavafy, and during the battle for Hill 731, close to Verati. 

Being Greek, means two plus two makes four here on earth. And not two plus two makes twenty-two in heaven. 

Being greek, means that you honor the dead with the solemn rites of Electra. It does not mean placing candles in front of graves and lining the pockets of the priests with money. 

Being Greek, means that you pay homage often to the Delphic "know thyself". It does not mean guilty confessions to devious priests that promise to save your sinful soul from the darkness of the abyss. 

Being Greek, means that you stand in front of the pillar of Kerameikos and read the inscription:

"Halt here, and weep"; for I no longer live. It does not mean carving on crosses and tombstones meaningless phrases like "waiting for the resurrection". 

Being Greek, means that in the morning you laugh like a child. At noon, you discuss prudently. And when the evening comes, you weep with dignity. it does not mean that you spend the morning asking the stones for forgiveness, at noon you tax-evade and light candles in the churches, and when dusk comes you have nowhere to hide from your fear and howl like a wounded animal.

Being Greek, means that as long as you live, you celebrate with your neighbors the sun and what makes us human. And that you struggle with your companions to tame the land and the sea. And when you are dead, to have your friends gather round to share their memories of you, drinking fine old wine, and singing of you:

 

"three young lads decided to break out of Hades, 

One wants to leave in May, the other in July.

And Demos wants it to be in October, 

so that he may taste the new wines. 

A fresh maiden overheard them, and wanted to go with them.

- Lady, your silver ornaments are loud, your beauty much to bright, 

with all your golden finery Death will surely hear us.

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Welcome to Hellenism.Net Satyr.

 

We've had a discussion about Liantinis a few years back. I was in fact in Greece this past summer and I visited Lakonia, and drove by that spot where Liantinis took his life. He was certainly a controversial personality. Some like his teachings and think he was an exceptional teacher and philosopher, others think he was a mediocre teacher and philosopher who did not add anything new to the philosophical thinking.

 

I haven't studied his works and I only know him from reading 3rd party opinions about his work, and also about listening to some short excerpts of him speaking in classes etc. (as the ones you provided earlier in this post). Based on this I cannot take sides as to whether he was an important teacher and philosopher or not. I guess it's up to those who enjoyed his teachings and his works to introduce to the rest of us the man and the philosopher.

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Hi Satyr,

 

I'm glad to see that there ore others who take interest in Liantinis. I always felt uncomfortable when faced with the cognitive dissonance that permeates Greek society. Liantinis did, in my opinion, put his finger on the root cause of that dissonance. Which is no other than the self contradictory construct of Helleno-Christianity.

 

Liantinis had a profound understanding of Hellenic (Ancient of Course) norms and values and the painfull expirience of Novo Graecian Christo-Talibanism. And he had the objectivity to assert that those two are irreconcilable. He dared to question the myths of "Novo Graecian" identity. He dared to stick his finger into the open sore. This earned him the enmity of a great many people in Greece. Nevertheless he remains highly relevant.

 

The recent court ordered exhumation of Alexandros Vellios demonstrates that Greek society has still not tackled the issues Liantinis has pointed out.

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Hi ajaxmonkey and admin,

Liantinis was not the first...he is preceded by Nietzsche.

I find the Germans the best reflections of Hellenic/Pagan thinking, prior to the war and its stifling, castrating, effects on hem and by extension on all of Europe. 

 

I've written extensively on it myself.

I call my thesis The Feminization of Mankind, a small part of a bigger thesis about Nihilism.

I've posted another piece of the puzzle here: http://www.hellenism.net/greek-forum/index.php/tags/forums/Nihilism/

 War like on Other

 

The root cause, in my view, can be traced back to Nihilism, as this is represented not only by Christianity but by Judaism and Islam, and later the offspring of Christianity Marxism and secular humanism. 

Before you go back to the official definition of Nihilism, a product of Russian orthodoxy, I will simply hint at a fact.

The term nihilism is itself an inversion, and part of nihilism.

 

Officially it means a world void of meaning, god, purpose, universal morality, but this is a positive as it describes cosmos and what makes life possible. 

Nihilists, disturbed by the absence of these manmade constructs, labeled existence 'nil'.

 

The effect of Nietzsche can be found in how he diagnosed this disease of mind, of the spirit, I call it a memetic disease, comparable to genetic diseases, and he updated pre-Socratic Hellenism, when Hellenism was healthy, for a modern audience.

 

 

Liantinis did not add anything different, he re-minded, re-called, from Lethe, what has been forgotten, buried under christian churches and mountains of words.

 

The value of Liantinis is found in how rare he is, as ajaxmonkey alluded to. 

He was a noble, healthy, spirit living in a diseases world. 
We, as survivors, must honor him and what he contributed. 

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Yes! Nietsche.

 

I've been fortunate to read his works in German and I agree full heartedly with you. One who has not read Nietsche can not understand The Ancient Hellenic world view. The man was an Intellectual Titan. A Hellene that was born after Hellas had passed.

Liantinis does indeed borrow heavily from Nietsche.

 

Nihillism is of course evident in Christianity but not so much in Judaism and Islam. Christianity is the attempt to bundle things that do not belong together, namely Hellenic Thought and Jewish soteriology. Thats why behind the facade it sums up to nothing. Well, the truth of the matter is that syncretism rarely produces anything worth mentioning.

 

The best example for Nihilism is in my view Buddhism though. And you can recognize Christian Nihillism far better once you have studied Buddhism. The root is in both cases the same. Life is short, entails suffering and ends with death. In fact Buddhism sees ALL LIFE as suffering. So what's the solution?

 

The Buddhist seeks salvation in Nirvana. The Nothingness that arises from the cesation of all attachment to the world. The Christian seeks bliss in the idiotic concept of a static afterlife that is free of pain, death, suffering, discord but also free of Growth, Ambition, Manifestation of ones will and strength. Both Buddhism and Christianity are thus deeply Nihilistic world views.

 

Ancient Hellas presents the antithesis to both.

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Buddhism is the eastern version, Judaism is the western.

Judaism manifested as Christianity, by combining with Hellenism, ergo Jesus is a half-breed,a  bridge attempting to integrate the incompatible, and Islam adapted Zaroatroanism to Judaism.

 

Christianity, post-Nietzsche produced secular forms, like Marxism and humanism, transhumanism being an offshoot.

Christianity and Islam are daughters of mother Judaism...Judaism and Buddhism are a reaction to population pressures and the resource problems this produces, necessitating a castration, husbandry, control of human nature.

Nihilism is a natural reaction to existence, from an organism dependent on order.

It gains power, becomes political, a religion, when there are no frontiers left accessible to the average individual.

This limit necessitates a self-control a self-repression.

Judaism is born, later than /Buddhism is born as a reaction to Hinduism.

Judaism steals form many cultures, it appropriates, and seduces the rabble, the weak, the sick, the desperate...and so it has to become elitist to prevent its overwhelming by masses of feebleness.

this is where it becomes hated by the slaves, the ill, the ignorant, the desperate in the west - it denies them salvation. Jews are the chosen to suffer, excluding all others.

 

Christianity is its adaptation. If you think of Judaism as a memetic virus, Christianity is its evolution. It adapts by appropriating parts of Hellenism and its cosmopolitanism, turning Christianity into a viral form of Jewishness.

Christianity is Judaism made universal.

When god was declared dead by Nietzsche, Christianity adapted, converting to Marxism, and later to liberalism and humanism.

 

There is no solution as long as there are no accessible frontiers.

For now the only reaction is one of preservation - to save some ideals from the destructive force of Nihilism.

Quality preserving itself before quantity. 

We see it in modernity and its destruction of sexual and racial identities.

Nihilism is essentially anti-life, anti-nature...nature means sum of all past nurturing. 

So, nihilism is anti-past, anti-precedent, experience memory, anti-history...this is why it rejects sexual roles and racial categories. 

It denies everything rooted in past/nature. 

 

Genes are stored experiences, nurturing reduced to genetic code.

Nihilism is a meme rewriting this code.

 

I have also written on the gene/meme relationship...elsewhere. 

Think matrix...the movie.

 

We live in an artificial reality, constructed by symbols, words, numbers, code.

This is Nihilism made "real".

 

If you keep in mind how gene produces meme, nature produces culture, then nihilism is its inversion.

The meme is attempting to make itself into gene.

Nihilism is he inversion of everything. 

It's code is language...words.

By controlling words it controls minds...it can convince minds that what it perceives is not real, replacing it whit its own abstraction. 

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Guest Satyr

Hellenism is not the only...it is the highest manifestation of Indo-European, Aryan, genes - bloodlines

There are others.

In the east we have Hinduism, and we know of lesser ones in the west, like Germanic culture.

 

Rome is civilization, and Hellenism is culture.

Nihilism is the inversion if this. From memes to genes, not from genes to memes.

It posits an ideal, independent from reality, a pure abstraction, a noumenon, and then attempts to justify it, to convert it not genes, into bloodlines.

 

In the metaphysical, when noumenon is detached from phenomenon, the apparent, the present, it become pure idea, ideal...just s imagination disconnected from reality is pure fantasy.

Noumenon is abstraction - simplification/generalization.

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Nietzsche, like Liantinis, didn't say anything extraordinary, he simply recalled a pre-Socratic wisdom. 

He remembered Heraclitus in a world dominated by monism.

He did it in such an eloquent way, inserting his psychoanalysis of modern man, that modern youths find him irresistible - a icon.

He said things they had never heard before, in a way they had never experienced. 

 

He reintroduced pre-Socratic thought into modernity dominated by absolutism, by Abrahamic Nihilism, with the top trio: Judaism - Christianity/Islam and later Marxism, Humanism. 

 

Modern Greeks, like most of, so called, western civilization is infected by a memetic virus, a brain disease, Nihilism.

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Guest eyoismos

 

Some people believe that Liantinis took his own life as a protest against what he saw as the lack of values in modern Greek society.

 

 

άκρον άωτον της βλακείας ... και νομίζει δηλαδή οτι άλλαξε τίποτα με τέτοια ενέργεια ;

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He was a romantic.

Like Socrates, he wanted to make a "profound" point, maybe cause his compatriots to think.

Unlike Socrates he lacked the philosophical acumen, the appeal, and so his act comes across as pretentious and a waste. 

 

Nietzsche went mad, not by what he saw, although that may also have been a factor, and I think Liantinis suffered a similar "madness". 

One those that see too much are prone to suffer. 

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άκρον άωτον της βλακείας ... και νομίζει δηλαδή οτι άλλαξε τίποτα με τέτοια ενέργεια ;

 

Well,

 

the only thing that each of us (Conscious Living Beings) can trully and rightfully call our own is our own life. Everyone has the right to do with his own life as he pleases. Liantinis did exercise this right and ended his life. As did Vellios a few weeks ago.

 

NO ONE.

Not me

Not you

Not the State

Not the Church

Not the Law

Absolutely NO ONE

 

has any right to judge such deeply personal decissions.

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Genes are stored experiences, nurturing reduced to genetic code.

Nihilism is a meme rewriting this code.

 

I have also written on the gene/meme relationship...elsewhere. 

Think matrix...the movie.

 

We live in an artificial reality, constructed by symbols, words, numbers, code.

This is Nihilism made "real".

 

If you keep in mind how gene produces meme, nature produces culture, then nihilism is its inversion.

The meme is attempting to make itself into gene.

Nihilism is he inversion of everything. 

It's code is language...words.

By controlling words it controls minds...it can convince minds that what it perceives is not real, replacing it whit its own abstraction. 

 

You may have gone a bit overboard on that one.

Geneticaly speaking we are all primates and only 3 hairs away from Chimps, Bonobos and Gorillas. This is the one thought I keep firmly present in my mind everytime I study phillosophical texts. And it helps put things into perspective. 

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What was "overboard"?

 

Chimpanzees and humans are the closest genetically, gorillas further away, and orangutans further.

 

Evolution works gradually, not suddenly.

It develops into intermediate stages, such as breeds, called races in the human species.

 

But as evolution proceeds gradually grizzly and polar bears can reproduce...so can asses and horses, and tigers and lions.

Different species that have yet to split completely, and so can still combine their genes.

 

Meme is an extension of genes.

Particular bloodlines, genes, create a particular culture, within a particular environment.

Genes are memories of past. Nature is the sum of all past nurturing.

Genes are codes, directing organic growth, behaviour.

Memes are the same....they reproduce, using code, which we call language - symbols.

Language is memory. 

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What was "overboard"?

 

Chimpanzees and humans are the closest genetically, gorillas further away, and orangutans further.

 

Evolution works gradually, not suddenly.

It develops into intermediate stages, such as breeds, called races in the human species.

 

But as evolution proceeds gradually grizzly and polar bears can reproduce...so can asses and horses, and tigers and lions.

Different species that have yet to split completely, and so can still combine their genes.

 

Meme is an extension of genes.

Particular bloodlines, genes, create a particular culture, within a particular environment.

Genes are memories of past. Nature is the sum of all past nurturing.

Genes are codes, directing organic growth, behaviour.

Memes are the same....they reproduce, using code, which we call language - symbols.

Language is memory. 

 

 

You are going overboard when you take "Memes" a device introduced by Dawkins to formulate, a very lacking, analogy between the propagation of Genetic traits and Ideas. Some quaks picked up the term and created the pseudo sience of memeticism. You are certainly going overboard if you base your hypothesis of "Memes being an extension of Genes" on a flawed analogy that spawned a pseudosience.

 

Evolution is based on two elements:

 

1. Random Variation

2. Selection based on fittness. Meaning adaptation to a certain environment.

 

If you consider that in case of Human evolution our imidiate environment is the society we live in then it becomes clear that every society is a selective breeding program in progress. If, lets say, fittness to survive and produce offspring depends on public sector employment gained by affiliation to some party, over time, the caste of public sector party drones will steadily increase as a percentage of the overall population.

 

If, lets say, a party connected moocher can afford to have three children on average while a non party affiliated guy survives on his mothers pension or ends up immigrating, then each generation increases the parasitic net recipients in the ecosystem and decresses the number of net contributors.

 

As this happens, the pressure on the net contributors incresses. Until they all migrate or go extinct. This is exactly what happened in Greece.

 

Take this "Theory" of mine with a bit of humor please. It only serves to demonstrate that if you want to argue "Genetics" you would be forced to admit that the traits of the

 

Οθωμανος-Ορθοδοξος-Δημοσιος-Συνδικαλισμενος-Κοματικος-Καρεκλοκενταυρος

 

are deeply embeded in our national DNA. So whats the point of even trying from here on?

Are you trying to convince people? Are you trying to change our "National DNA"?

To what end?

There are many good people in the world, even in Greece, all you have to do is go find them. Don't waste your time on GMG's (Genetically Modified Greeks)

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I use "meme" not because I am in agreement with all those that used the term, but because it perfectly matches with "gene", in all ways.

 

Memes also display variation as language evolves.

Memes are also selected, as the genes they are an extension of dominate and spread, or die off.

Genes manifest as organism, memes manifest as state.

Genes express as personality, behavior, memes express as culture, as civilization. 

 

 

Memetic fertilization happens linguistically. Through verbal intercourse.

A mind is fertilized with words, genes, in sequences, forming ideas.

 

 

Christianity is a hybrid, like Jesus was a half-breed.

I thought I explained this.

A product of intercourse between Judaism and Hellenism.

Like in genetic reproduction half the genes are passed on the the offspring, and so in this case only half of Hellenism was passed on to Christianity.

Because Judaism and Hellenism are incompatible world-views, incompatible memes, Christianity was born ill, and died when its heart, God was declared dead by Nietzsche.

Illness cannot survive in world, and so Christianity morphed, changed into secular formes, like Marxism, and currently it is running around disguised as secular humanism. 

 

I've written my views on how I consider it a memetic virus infecting every healthy meme it infects, it comes in contact with and finds a weakness in.

 

My motive is that of a diagnostician.

I diagnose the disease, and I attempt to invigorate the autoimmune systems by injecting them with a blood from when the organism was healthy.

A booster shot, in keeping with our metaphor.  

 

Modern Greece is sick.

It has been sick for centuries. 

When they slaughtered the pagans that was its end.

It now survives as memory as words, people repeat, like zombies.

Nihilism creates mental zombies - anti-life, anti-nature....so desperate to eat and drink healthy flesh and blood.

That the Greeks easily took to Marxism point to the fact that Marxism is but a secular variant of Christianity.

Today the political battle there is between the Christians, represented by the right, and the Marxists, and humanists, represented by the left.  

Right/Left the dual poles of the Nihilistic paradigm. It occupies both sides of the debate, boxing in human consciousness, as if there is no other alternative. 

This is related to metaphysics, which will take a long time to unfold.

Let's just say Parmenides was assimilated within kabbalah, leaving out Heraclitus.

Absolutes in a world of Flux....all is fluid...Τα πάντα ρέει 

Heraclitus used the metaphor of fire to represent this fluidity of existence. 

 

The absolutist thinking is characterized by the absolute one and absolute nil.

Both are parts of the Nihilistic paradigm. 

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Interesting.

You want to save Europe from the Abrahamic disease of Christianity!

 

And who was it again that forced Christianity upon the rest of the world? Was it not Europeans?

 

You seem to forget the Europe is 100% "Judeo Christianity". All of it. Its agnostics, atheists, materialists, progresives, concervatives, racists, nazis, communists. All of them are subconsciously "Judeo Christian".

 

Consider a European atheist.

When he  rejects God he rejects the Judaic god. He is too stupid to even consider that there may be other concepts of divinity. So even his rejection of the Judeo Christian God occurs within the confines of Judeo Christian definitions.

 

In fact, if you take "Judeo Christian" out of Europe you are left with NOTHING. 

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He was a romantic.

Like Socrates, he wanted to make a "profound" point, maybe cause his compatriots to think.

Unlike Socrates he lacked the philosophical acumen, the appeal, and so his act comes across as pretentious and a waste. 

 

Nietzsche went mad, not by what he saw, although that may also have been a factor, and I think Liantinis suffered a similar "madness". 

One those that see too much are prone to suffer. 

 

μανία που έχουν μερικοί να συγκρίνουν μήλα και αχλάδια και λεμόνια με τα ίδια κρητήρια

 

η άρχουσα τάξη καταδίκασε τον σωκράτη να πάρει δηλητήριο... αντίθετα με τον Λ - μην μπλέκουμε τα μπούτια μας

 

ο σωκράτης δεν αυτοκτόνησε, απλώς πήρε ευσυνήδητη απόφαση βάσει της φιλοσοφίας του κι τα πιστεύω ταου κι όλα τα άλλα , και υπάκουσε την απόφαση των δικαστών του. ούτε καν σύγκριση με τον άλλονε τον κύριο "Λ" .... διότι στο τέλος αποδήχτηκε βούρ μαλάκας και στο τέλος εκμηδένησε όλες τις φιλοσοφίες σου

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Well,

 

the only thing that each of us (Conscious Living Beings) can trully and rightfully call our own is our own life. Everyone has the right to do with his own life as he pleases. Liantinis did exercise this right and ended his life. As did Vellios a few weeks ago.

 

NO ONE.

Not me

Not you

Not the State

Not the Church

Not the Law

Absolutely NO ONE

 

has any right to judge such deeply personal decissions.

 

κουραφέξαλα στο τετράγωνο

 

ποιός σου είπε δηλαδή οτι πχ δεν ήταν "ψυχικά ταραγμένος".... στιγμιαία ή μόνιμα πιά ;

ή μήπως πχ όταν κανένα θηλυκό κόβει τις φλέβες της γιατί ο γκόμενος την παράτησε , δικαίωμα της ;

 

αλλά θα μου πεί .. ποιός θα κρίνει αν ένα άτομο έχει χάσει επαφή με την πραγματικότητα

 

αμαααν ... τι λέω τώρα ...  ναι

μα φυσικά ....

όλοι μας

εγώ

εσύ

η πολιτεια

η εκκλησία

ο νόμος

 

ΟΛΟΙ ΜΑΣ

 

άσε που η αυτοκτονία δεν είναι φυσιολογικό, ούτε κάτι που η "μητέρα φύση" έχει φυτεύεσει στο κεφάλι του κάθει ζωντανού οργανισμού

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I use "meme" not because I am in agreement with all those that used the term, but because it perfectly matches with "gene", in all ways.

 

Memes also display variation as language evolves.

Memes are also selected, as the genes they are an extension of dominate and spread, or die off.

Genes manifest as organism, memes manifest as state.

Genes express as personality, behavior, memes express as culture, as civilization. 

 

 

Memetic fertilization happens linguistically. Through verbal intercourse.

A mind is fertilized with words, genes, in sequences, forming ideas.

 

 

Christianity is a hybrid, like Jesus was a half-breed.

I thought I explained this.

A product of intercourse between Judaism and Hellenism.

Like in genetic reproduction half the genes are passed on the the offspring, and so in this case only half of Hellenism was passed on to Christianity.

Because Judaism and Hellenism are incompatible world-views, incompatible memes, Christianity was born ill, and died when its heart, God was declared dead by Nietzsche.

Illness cannot survive in world, and so Christianity morphed, changed into secular formes, like Marxism, and currently it is running around disguised as secular humanism. 

 

I've written my views on how I consider it a memetic virus infecting every healthy meme it infects, it comes in contact with and finds a weakness in.

 

My motive is that of a diagnostician.

I diagnose the disease, and I attempt to invigorate the autoimmune systems by injecting them with a blood from when the organism was healthy.

A booster shot, in keeping with our metaphor.  

 

Modern Greece is sick.

It has been sick for centuries. 

When they slaughtered the pagans that was its end.

It now survives as memory as words, people repeat, like zombies.

Nihilism creates mental zombies - anti-life, anti-nature....so desperate to eat and drink healthy flesh and blood.

That the Greeks easily took to Marxism point to the fact that Marxism is but a secular variant of Christianity.

Today the political battle there is between the Christians, represented by the right, and the Marxists, and humanists, represented by the left.  

Right/Left the dual poles of the Nihilistic paradigm. It occupies both sides of the debate, boxing in human consciousness, as if there is no other alternative. 

This is related to metaphysics, which will take a long time to unfold.

Let's just say Parmenides was assimilated within kabbalah, leaving out Heraclitus.

Absolutes in a world of Flux....all is fluid...Τα πάντα ρέει 

Heraclitus used the metaphor of fire to represent this fluidity of existence. 

 

The absolutist thinking is characterized by the absolute one and absolute nil.

Both are parts of the Nihilistic paradigm. 

 

Satyr, you're really confusing the shit out of me with your conflicting ideas  :D

For example, on one hand you seem to embrace the ideals and admire people like Nietzsche and on the other hand you say that "nihilism creates mental zombies". Spoiler alert: Nietzsche is a nihilist...

 

I agree that Christianity is a hybrid but it's not a hybrid of just Judaism and Hellenism. There are also sprinkles of other religions and philosophies of the time in there, and that's normal. Most religions, like most philosophical ideas, are "borrowing" things from contemporary or previous religions and philosophies, mix everything together and then pass it to the "converted" as something new to believe in.

 

You seem to believe that the "philosophical ideas" of ancient Greeks to be "untouchable", but the reality is that many Greek "philosophers" (and I use this term loosely to include people like Aristotle and Plato but also Pythagoras, Thales and Archimedes) got some things - many things - very very wrong. They also held absolutist thinking in high regard (read Plato for example...).

 

Saying this, some of them were amongst the first human beings (as recorded by our known history...) who started using a precursor of what we call today the scientific method, however crude their methods might have been at the time. For this alone humanity owes them a great deal.

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Guest Satyr

This is because you have failed to read my thesis:

War like no Other.

 

Some brief points....

 

Nihilism = memetic virus

how does it spread?

Codes = symbols/words.

Words are how it spreads and infects.

It survives as abstraction, and has no meaning outside minds

 

If you understand this proceed...

 

What is the modern definition of Nihilism?

A world void of meaning, purpose, universal morality, God.

This fact about cosmos, is described by Nihilists as Nil.

In other words, Nihilism is defined by nihilists.

If the world lacks what they need, which are human fabrications, they call the world a "negative", when in fact world, that makes life possible is a 'positive' not a 'negative'.

 

I think Nietzsche self-description as a "Nihilists" is about this:

What would a nullifier of nihilism call himself?

To annul the nil is to reaffirm the positive - which is world void of meaning, purpose, god, and universal morality.

He also called himself an anti-antisemite...which many have misconstrued as pro-zionism.

The reason he was anit-antisemitic was that to be an antisemite is to feed into the Jewish sense of self - his power.

The Jew identifies with being a victim - the eternal victim, designated by God.

Victimhood is the psychosis of modern man. All are victims of something. 

Modern Greeks being infected by Judaism through Christianity, are always the victims of some external power, or always the victims of politicians who they voted for and whoa re the product of their own society. 

This is how Nihilism infects minds. It redefines words so that the individual is trapped within its paradigms.

It inverts the meanings. 

Like I said...Nihilism is a memetic virus...it inverts all.

It only exists as meme, as idea, or ideal, in other words it only exists and spreads using language or semiotics - symbols. 

It hijacks and warps meanings.

 

Modern science is not free from social pressures

Modern scientists depend no funding from state or from private sources, which means their studies are regulated and directed.

Furthermore, scientists are humans.

They live within the same Nihilistic system, meaning their careers their well-being, their families are at risk.

Plenty of examples of intellectuals, scientists being shamed, threatened, pressured, not to publish their work, or to withdraw them.

Fields of most importance, like those dealing with sexual differences in cognitive potentials, or racial differences, or how homosexuality is a genetic dead-end, and so a dysfunction, are all no-go areas.

To call homosexuality "normal" when it contradict he very evolutionary function of sex and copulation, is absurd.

 

To be trained to not trust your wons senses, such as recognizing what looks different as actually being different, is a remarkable display of brainwashing, of social engineering.

When considering the fact that we have sense organs to perceive and judge using appearances - το φαινομενον - without any experts or biochemistry degrees then being trained from birth to selectively distrust our own senses is astounding.

 

Luckily there are some few who still speak honestly, even if they are kept in obscurity.

 

In closing....

The thesis I posted is one of many.

To unfold the entirety of my thinking would require hours of lecturing, and/or of reading.

most of it is posted in a forum called

Know Thyself.

Though there it is kept in restricted access because of the controversial nature of it. 

 

My physics are connected to me metaphysics, in a thesis called "Interactions & Interpretations". 

My positions on Nihilism began with an essay called "The Feminization of Mankind" which has become, over the years, a tiny part of a greater picture.

Whatever misunderstandings arise, it is because there are no many details, so many parameters to the posts I make here.

 

Thanks for asking, allowing me to illuminate a very crucial piece of it, the very word Nihilism. 

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admin:

 

I agree that Christianity is a hybrid but it's not a hybrid of just Judaism and Hellenism. There are also sprinkles of other religions and philosophies of the time in there, and that's normal. Most religions, like most philosophical ideas, are "borrowing" things from contemporary or previous religions and philosophies, mix everything together and then pass it to the "converted" as something new to believe in.

 

Christianity is 100% Judaism clad in Greek terminology. The few supperficial differences are due to the fact that Judaism was an ethnic religion formulated within an ethnic domain. Christianity on the other hand was formulated within Byzantium which was the first and to date only Jewish empire. So it was dressed up to appeal to the multiethnic populus of that empire but it remains 100% Jewish. Taking the jewish franchise global. That's all there is to Christianity.

 

 

admin:

 

You seem to believe that the "philosophical ideas" of ancient Greeks to be "untouchable", but the reality is that many Greek "philosophers" (and I use this term loosely to include people like Aristotle and Plato but also Pythagoras, Thales and Archimedes) got some things - many things - very very wrong. They also held absolutist thinking in high regard (read Plato for example...).

 

Which Greek philosophic Ideas? Are we putting sophists such as Socrates, Plato in the same pott as Materialists such as Leukipus and Democritus?

If the latter had not lived under Persian rule but within the juristiction of Athens they would have been tried and executed. Lets be clear on one thing:

 

Philosophy did not emerge in Greece. It emerged in Ionia under Lydian and latter Persian rule. Athens, while independent, produced many things but Philosophy is not one of them. The fires that were lit in Ionia would have gonne extinct in Greece if it weren't for the advance of the Macedonians who rekindled and carried them far and wide.

 

 

 

admin:

 

Spoiler alert: Nietzsche is a nihilist...

 

Nietsche is not a Nihilist. He attempts a diagnosis of Nihilism and tries formulate a "cure" but in the end fails on both accounts and goes mad. In my opinion his failure is due to a lack of humor. He takes himself and the subject way to seriously. That's why I said in an other post that I keep the mental image of a pontificating Chimp in my head when I read Nietsche. That helps me put things into perspective. The root cause of Nietsches failure, in my opinion, is that he declares "God is dead" but the very fact that his concept of God is that of Judeo Christianity shows that his thought remained fettered to Judeo Christian paradigms. Thats what break's him.

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κουραφέξαλα στο τετράγωνο

 

ποιός σου είπε δηλαδή οτι πχ δεν ήταν "ψυχικά ταραγμένος".... στιγμιαία ή μόνιμα πιά ;

ή μήπως πχ όταν κανένα θηλυκό κόβει τις φλέβες της γιατί ο γκόμενος την παράτησε , δικαίωμα της ;

 

αλλά θα μου πεί .. ποιός θα κρίνει αν ένα άτομο έχει χάσει επαφή με την πραγματικότητα

 

αμαααν ... τι λέω τώρα ...  ναι

μα φυσικά ....

όλοι μας

εγώ

εσύ

η πολιτεια

η εκκλησία

ο νόμος

 

ΟΛΟΙ ΜΑΣ

 

άσε που η αυτοκτονία δεν είναι φυσιολογικό, ούτε κάτι που η "μητέρα φύση" έχει φυτεύεσει στο κεφάλι του κάθει ζωντανού οργανισμού

So you are telling me that, the Church, the State, The Law, all of "You", have ownership over the life of Liantinis or Vellios or me?

How so? Who gave all of you that right? Your God perhaps? Even though he's not my God?

 

Such attitudes explain the bizare spectacle of exhuming the cadaver of Vellios to determine if there is someone to be punished for assisting him. The Greek Justice system has moved quickly on that one. If only it could move at the same speed when it comes to deliberate cold blooded murder as in the case of the people who were burned at Marfin.

 

And you say that suicide is "unnatural" while at the same time Greece celebrates occurrences of mass suicide such as those at the Arkadi Monastery or at the Zalongo village as acts of heroism. Did you mean to say that acts of suicide are unnatural unless they fit into the mythical narative of our ethnogenesis?

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Guest Satyr

 

Christianity is 100% Judaism clad in Greek terminology. The few supperficial differences are due to the fact that Judaism was an ethnic religion formulated within an ethnic domain. Christianity on the other hand was formulated within Byzantium which was the first and to date only Jewish empire. So it was dressed up to appeal to the multiethnic populus of that empire but it remains 100% Jewish. Taking the jewish franchise global. That's all there is to Christianity.

 

 

 

Which Greek philosophic Ideas? Are we putting sophists such as Socrates, Plato in the same pott as Materialists such as Leukipus and Democritus?

If the latter had not lived under Persian rule but within the juristiction of Athens they would have been tried and executed. Lets be clear on one thing:

 

Philosophy did not emerge in Greece. It emerged in Ionia under Lydian and latter Persian rule. Athens, while independent, produced many things but Philosophy is not one of them. The fires that were lit in Ionia would have gonne extinct in Greece if it weren't for the advance of the Macedonians who rekindled and carried them far and wide.

 

 

 

 

Nietsche is not a Nihilist. He attempts a diagnosis of Nihilism and tries formulate a "cure" but in the end fails on both accounts and goes mad. In my opinion his failure is due to a lack of humor. He takes himself and the subject way to seriously. That's why I said in an other post that I keep the mental image of a pontificating Chimp in my head when I read Nietsche. That helps me put things into perspective. The root cause of Nietsches failure, in my opinion, is that he declares "God is dead" but the very fact that his concept of God is that of Judeo Christianity shows that his thought remained fettered to Judeo Christian paradigms. Thats what break's him.

 

 

Bingo!!

 

Nietzsche is an anti-Nihilist, when the word nil is used properly to mean rejecting life, denying nature, burying world in symbols, words....

Moderns call nihilism the belief in a world void of all the lies they demand from life - to be given to them, to be provided for them....meaning, purpose, a parent, God...rules to protect their fragility they call morality.

 

But world is positive, because this world void of meaning, of purpose, of morality, of god, is what makes life possible - it is a positive, not a negative as the nihilists call it, inverting meanings. 

 

Nietzsche uses nihilist in the proper sense...as nullifying nihilism = positivity, "yay saying"...

 

He is an anti-antisemite in the sense that hating Jews feeds into their own identity,a s those born to suffer, tob e hated by the world, on behalf of God!!!

 

Do you not see how nihilism is insidious, a cancer of the mind?

It has convinced myriads that world is negative because ti is missing human constructs.

Brainwashing. 

 

Do you now see what Nietzsche is, in Modern times, and why Liantinis killed himself?

A waste. To kil yourself for illness, for zombies...to hold yourself accountable to filth.

He left a daughter alone.

Socrates killed himself at ana danced age, wanting to make his death his final statement, but he was also a symptom of Hellenic decline, after he came back from war, speaking of a Zalmoxis he met in Thrace. 

This is why he became a monotheist, and a precursor to the dis-ease of Christianity. 

This is why Plato, through who we hear Socrates speak, has been adopted by Christians....he is the part Judaism merged with to produce Christianity, the super-virus. 

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Satyr:

 

Nietzsche is an anti-Nihilist, when the word nil is used properly to mean rejecting life, denying nature, burying world in symbols, words....

Moderns call nihilism the belief in a world void of all the lies they demand from life - to be given to them, to be provided for them....meaning, purpose, a parent, God...rules to protect their fragility they call morality.

For starters, Nietzsche was not an antisemite. Meaning someone who is hostile towards people of semitic (or any othe) descent. He opposes IDEAS, such as those expressed in Judaism and the Christian variety thereof, not PEOPLE. But his thought still remains rooted in Judeo Christian paradigms.

 

There is one key sentence in Nietzsche's notes that explains his notion of nihilism as well as Nietzsches internal strife:

 

 

Wer das Große nicht mehr in Gott findet, findet es überhaupt nicht vor und muß es leugnen oder – schaffen – schaffen helfen.

 

 

Meaning:

 

 

He who can not find Greatness in God anymore can't find it at all and must thus either deny greatness OR create - help create - it.

 

 

First thing that stands out is that Nietzsche considers the, no doubt Judaeo Christian, GOD as the primary source of Greatness.

Next thing you know, Nietzsche declares: God (the imaginary creation aka NIL) is dead. I killed him (The deliberate lie, the NIL)!

 

That leaves our self annointed God killer with no alternative but to -Create- or -Help Create- his own Greatness.

This of course begs the question: What the hell is Greatness?

 

Some phillosophies and religions define it as absolute truth, purpose, cause, escape into an imperishable imutable spiritual absolute.

You can pick and choose or make it up from scratch, create Greatness, as Nietzsche suggests. But here is the thing Nietzsche overlooked.

God, whom he allegedly killed, was a form of Greatness that was created by people who executed Nietzshe's suggestion countless aeons before Nietzsche was born.

 

So what Nietzsche is saying is:

Kill the God (Fictious source of greatness) created by previous Generations and create your own Greatness (aka GOD)!

 

So in essence he kills God and imediately recreates him by another name. That's the source of Nietzschian confusion.

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Hostile is the wrong word.

When someone diagnoses a disease he is not hostile to the virus. he may admire its tenacity, its methodology, and does so to increase his own autoimmune system strength.

One does not hate linos for being linos.

One understands them, by studying them, so as to not be eaten by them.

 

Death of "god" is a metaphorical way of saying death of the absolute, which was never alive to begin with - death of its mental existence. 

Nietzsche confronts Judaism through Christianity. 

He considers the Judeo-Christian God a source of human degradation - herd psychology. 

To demand from other, what you cannot find or produce in self, like meaning, purpose, the decency imposed upon manimals with Abrahamism, which would revert to their natural state within this threat/reward mechanism.

If the only way a christian can be kind to his fellow creatures is a vindictive, authoritarian God, promising him eternal life, then his 'kindness" is fake.

 

I just told you he was anti-antisemitic....meaning to be antisemitic is to feed into the Jewish identity of being chosen to suffer. 

You cannot the a virus for being a virus.

You cannot hate the liar for fooling you....this is the Modern Greek dis-ease - blame everyone but self.

Nietzsche admired Jews because they accepted the suffering as part of their god-given identity.

Their earthly spiritual decadence was converted to lush health, in the kingdom of god. 

This is why they reject Jesus as their Messiah. 

The end of times is their reward, being anti-life, and anti-nature. 

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well,

 

I'm not a very smart guy so I work around this shortcoming by sticking to a one-dimensional procedural approach.

Meaning: I read Nietzsche, for example, identify key points and line them up in a linear red thread so that A leads to B leads to C.

 

When I encounter a non sequitur I rearange in an attempt to eliminate it. If that doesn't work I conclude that the whole thing is either beyond my cognitive facilities or utter nonsense.

 

Forgive me for saying this but, so far, I get nothing but non sequitur from you posts. Your interpretation of Nietzsche does, in my opinion, not follow from Nietzsches writtings. For me your posts consist of disjoined statements that can not be arranged in a way that each follows from the previous.

 

Could you please line them up on a red thread so that even an obsolete 1d procedural cpu like the one in my head can follow?

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