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America just got greater.


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#41 FriendofGreece

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 05:30 AM

Don't get too hung up on the White uneducated men versus young Brown uneducated men, maybe you could lump them in the blue collars.

 

If we did not have free trade, please tell me what you think the world would have been now?

 

I think one thing for sure is that the elite would have been much less rich. What about the poor countries? What about the rich countries?



#42 ajaxmonkey

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 05:41 AM

India and China would have famines and their people would die by the millions while the European worker wouldn't have to compete against slave labour. That's how it used to be up until the 70's. It was great for Europeans and Americans.

#43 FriendofGreece

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 05:48 AM

Yes, those were the good times for Europeans and Americans. I heard that US auto workers had big fat wages. There were a lot of unions, and don't ask the workers to do something outside of what is specifically their tasks to do. 

 

Why did they start free trade, do you know?

 

And do you think it is a good idea for the US to abolish free trade now (or renegotiating the trade deals) and putting tariffs on Chinese and Mexican imports like Trump proposes to?



#44 Dino

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 06:08 AM

Let me tell you one thing. as an American of Hellenic descent, I may be considered white male, but that is NOT why I VOTED TRUMP. As previously mentioned by others, prior administrations, cared about global issues leaving domestic issues fester. Children going hungry, homeless dying on the streets, infrastructure crumbling, while spending billions in international "adventures" of their own creation. They would demonize a situation or a leader by using their lapdog press, and use this information as a pretext for interventions.

 

We heard that story many times and we have waken up. Time to let a NON politician give it a try. He said all the right things, and the people believed. I just hope it was not a siren song.

I have listened to him talk for 10 to 15 years prior, and found him to be genuine and honest. He speaks his mind, regardless the consequences.

 

Most politicians ar from poor backgrounds and have to consider ther after the politicking lives, which makes them vulnerable to being bought. He is a billionaire. You can't buy buy him for a few miserly millions. 

Honest? Are you kidding me?

NEVER have I seen a politician lie so much, never.

http://www.politifac...mp-truth-o-met/

He was the worst politician out of the 15 running from the Republican side, and there were some horrendous candidates as well as some good ones.



#45 ajaxmonkey

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 06:11 AM

Free trade started as a political gambit. After the Vietnam war Henry Kissinger wanted to engage the Chinese, Indians etc... and Isolate the Soviet Union. So free trade got started at a stage where the Chinese and Indians had nothing to Trade other than raw materials. Over time Investment came in and manufacturing got started.

Which, by itself, was not a bad thing. In some cases the economic development of those countries was matched by the development of wages and internal consumption. There is a historic precedent: Korean, Japanese, Taiwanese, worker is earning wages comparable to those of a European or American and also consumes at comparable levels. There is nothing wrong with having free trade with such countries. Its a give and take.

But there are also China, India, Bangladesh, Pakistan and what not. In those are countries labour conditions are almost indistinguishable from slavery. Domestic consumption is very low while production is sky high and dirt cheap. So why should the workers in Europe suffer due to institutionalised "Slavery" in India and China?

Tariffs are a MUST on trade with countries that follow such policies. Lets not forget that it was Tariffs that moved Japan to increase domestic consumption and increase imports to the point that it is now a net importer of goods and services. China is also slowly moving towards that direction and will move even faster if tariffs come into play.

India, Bangladesh and such are just too "Feudal" to ever get there. As export markets they are completely irrelevant. Slam some fat tariffs on them and lets see what happens. They may, against my expectations, start to think about the living conditions of their own people and build up wages and consumption or their Feudal Lords may divest themselves completely and move to Europe. Their money is there already.

#46 Dino

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 06:14 AM

This American, that has voted at every election since 1992, is completely disappointed and embarrassed at what happened. This by far is the worst election in recent US history. His is a racist, sexual predator, a complete embarrassment! 



#47 ajaxmonkey

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 06:17 AM

This American, that has voted at every election since 1992, is completely disappointed and embarrassed at what happened. This by far is the worst election in recent US history. His is a racist, sexual predator, a complete embarrassment!


Why is that?
The people have spoken. Is that bad?

#48 FriendofGreece

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 06:29 AM

Japan which was once thought to surpass the US has had a stagnant economy for long. Is it the tariffs that destroyed its economy?

 

China has no choice but to increase its domestic consumption with its growth slowing down. If US tariffs are imposed, its economy will be hit, however I think US exports will be hit too. There are a lot of income inequalities in China, hopefully the Chinese government will be able to take care of its poor people.

 

India is trying to be the next China with its "Make in India". The US are very friendly with India because they use it as a counterpoint against China. I don't think the US will slap tariffs on India. In any event, I think India has missed the boat on being the next "factory of the world" because of robotization.

 

Which raises the question of what jobs would the US bring back? The jobs are gone. If factories are open in the US, there will be robots with only a few people to control them, there will not be mass hirings to work in factories.



#49 FriendofGreece

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 06:33 AM

In these elections, the two candidates were nothing stellar. One thing with Trump though is that he seems to backtrack so soon on what he said about the wall, Obamacare, etc. I am fine with him nevertheless as long as he does not make war.



#50 admin

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 06:36 AM

Why is that?
The people have spoken. Is that bad?

 

Yes, of course it's bad. The people spoke in Greece and in the UK too, and they messed up in both cases. Politicians have become "entertainers". The most successful politician/entertainer is the one who gets most of the voters of his party out to vote. That's all it takes to win an election. You don't need to have a realistic political platform, in fact you don't need a platform at all. As it was proved by Trump you don't even need to say anything of value, just say stupid things, lies, whatever comes in mind, and then the next day say the complete opposite. It still doesn't matter. As long as you get the sheep out in droves to vote you're still good.

 

It happened in Greece, it then happened in the UK, now it happened in the US too. This is not good news for democracy...



#51 ajaxmonkey

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 06:41 AM

BS

That stupid Talk of the "Robotized" Industry has been around since the 70's it wasn't true then and it isn't true now. Sure automation has an impact but manufacturing still remains labour intensive.

If one were to follow your argument then it is only a matter of time before the Chinese and Indian slave labourer goes extinct. And since the Robots who are going to replace them don't earn wages or purchase (neither Western nor Eastern) consumer goods the Wage Earner, and spender, has become a thing of the past all over the world. So whom will those robots be producing for? Whom will the drones deliver to? The self driving cars carry? Are you envisioning consumer robots too?

Is that the new "Tariff free World Economy" you dream of?

Get real.

#52 ajaxmonkey

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 06:52 AM

Yes, of course it's bad. The people spoke in Greece and in the UK too, and they messed up in both cases. Politicians have become "entertainers". The most successful politician/entertainer is the one who gets most of the voters of his party out to vote. That's all it takes to win an election. You don't need to have a realistic political platform, in fact you don't need a platform at all. As it was proved by Trump you don't even need to say anything of value, just say stupid things, lies, whatever comes in mind, and then the next day say the complete opposite. It still doesn't matter. As long as you get the sheep out in droves to vote you're still good.
 
It happened in Greece, it then happened in the UK, now it happened in the US too. This is not good news for democracy...


I understand your confusion.

"You don't have to say anything of VALUE"... but what exactly is a value? Is there such a thing as objective Values?

Well there isn't. Nothing has ANY value in NATURE. Value is a cognitive construct that exists only in the mind of the sentient being that does the evaluating. As such all values are totally subjective.

Someone may be "Saying Nothing of Value" according to your evaluation, which is based on what serves you best of course. What is of no value to you may be very valuable (beneficial) to somebody else. And who says that your interest is above his?

Democracy is meant to decide what is of Value to a society and what is not. The contest took place, according to the rules, and those who wanted it more won. Now they have a President who'll, hopefully, lead in accordance with the values he campaigned on. The end.

#53 FriendofGreece

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 07:06 AM

Robotization is real, it may take 15-20 years, but it is coming. 

 

https://www.technolo...rs-with-robots/

 

Even the Indians recognize the problem of robotization:

 

http://qz.com/771498...the-next-china/

 

By the way, I don't dream of a tariff-free world economy the way you may mean it. I am just saying that if the elite gets richer because of free trade then tax them more on their profits, not less, no matter where those profits are earned. That way it would not make a difference whether they have the products being produced in the US or elsewhere. As long as it is a US corporation, tax it on US tax on its world profits.



#54 ajaxmonkey

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 07:17 AM

Robotization is real, it may take 15-20 years, but it is coming. 
 
https://www.technolo...rs-with-robots/


I'm doing, among other things, micro controller programming for robotics applications. Thanks for letting me know that robotics is real.
But people are real too. And it is their wants and needs that create an Economy, robots included. If an economy doesn't provide wages there cant be consumption, without consumption there is no need for production. An economy that does not provide Jobs and living wages is either going down or survives as a parasite. Tariffs are supposed to address the latter.

#55 admin

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 05:36 PM

I understand your confusion.

"You don't have to say anything of VALUE"... but what exactly is a value? Is there such a thing as objective Values?

Well there isn't. Nothing has ANY value in NATURE. Value is a cognitive construct that exists only in the mind of the sentient being that does the evaluating. As such all values are totally subjective.

Someone may be "Saying Nothing of Value" according to your evaluation, which is based on what serves you best of course. What is of no value to you may be very valuable (beneficial) to somebody else. And who says that your interest is above his?

Democracy is meant to decide what is of Value to a society and what is not. The contest took place, according to the rules, and those who wanted it more won. Now they have a President who'll, hopefully, lead in accordance with the values he campaigned on. The end.

 

That's a pretty silly argument. I won't go into a philosophical debate around what's objective and what's subjective, but I think we can all agree that someone saying in public that "he's so great that he can grab a woman by the pussy" is not a smart or decent thing to say. This is not subjective. This is something commonly accepted in our day and age as being a stupid remark.

 

Also blatantly lying and flip-flopping is not something subjective either. IN our day and age we have something called video and audio recording and one can easily go back in time and see or hear what Trump said about different subjects and pinpoint all his lies and fli-flopping throughout this election. Again, not subjective.



#56 ajaxmonkey

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 06:42 PM

Is it silly to say that values are constructs meant to serve the interests of those who do the evaluating?

You have no issue with slave wages in China and suicide nets on FoxCon factories.
And why should you? Cheap cellphones and Tablets are of value to you. And why should you share the concerns of blue collar workers in the US? You are not one of them. Penalising slave labour in China by imposing tariffs is not in your best interest. It may end up making things more expensive for you.

And of course you are all pro immigration. You are an immigrant after all. So are your values not self serving?
Nothing wrong with that. I'm the same way, in fact I share your values to a great extend but that doesn't prevent me from looking beyond my own situation and trying to understand other peoples perspectives.

So, Trump said "Pussy" while he was running his big mouth in front of a camera. So what? Bill Clinton was sticking cigars in Monica's pussy in the oval office and went on to bomb an Aspirin factory in Khartoum to distract from the stains he left on Monica's dress. No problem there right?

University of Berkley offers classes on Tupac's "Poetics". The guy who made a song about "the bitch" he rapped after he got convicted. No problem there either right? How could you criticise the "Strapped" Messenger of Love who has been elevated to a major role model to the well educated hard working afro-american youth? Especially after "their champion" lost this election to verbal pussy grabbing Trump and the ignorant hate filed white man.

And no. I'm not a defender of Trump or "The White Man". I'm neither white nor black nor brown. I'm an Anatolian with a sense for realities.

#57 ajaxmonkey

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 08:15 PM

FoG:

I am just saying that if the elite gets richer because of free trade then tax them more on their profits, not less, no matter where those profits are earned. That way it would not make a difference whether they have the products being produced in the US or elsewhere. As long as it is a US corporation, tax it on US tax on its world profits.


Don't blame everything on the elite. I'm looking at it from a Greek perspective and I see that India has tariffs on:

Olive oil - 45%
Nut and seed oils - 100%
Juice concentrates and non alcoholic beverages - 30%
Wine and alcoholic beverages - 100%
Mastix and other tree gums and resins - 45%
Pasta and Durum wheat products - 30%
Shoes and clothing - 15%
Construction steel and pipes - 15%
Aluminum products - 10%
Tobaco products - 30%
Spirits - 150%
Refined Sugar - 100%

(http://www.cbec.gov..../cst2015-16-idx)

Those are things Greece produces. So tell me again why would it be wrong for Greece to slap a 45% Import duty on all goods imported from India? Should I care more about India than about my own people?

#58 admin

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 10:25 PM

So, Trump said "Pussy" while he was running his big mouth in front of a camera. So what? Bill Clinton was sticking cigars in Monica's pussy in the oval office and went on to bomb an Aspirin factory in Khartoum to distract from the stains he left on Monica's dress. No problem there right?

 

When did I ever say that Clinton was a saint? Whatever he did though, he did it in the privacy of his house/office, or whatever, so it's none of my concern. Clinton never bragged publicly to a radio or TV station about all this, even though at the end of the day the sexual relationships of two consenting adults shouldn't be anyone's business.

 

On the other hand, we have Trump publicly saying socially unacceptable things like grabbing a woman by the pussy (without the woman's consent...) or screwing his daughter or whatever. These are socially unacceptable things to do (or even say that you'd like to do).



#59 ajaxmonkey

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 11:17 PM

Oh that PC of yours. Saying "socially unacceptable" things is bad BUT a president screwing his intern and then bombing a country and killing dozens to distract from the media uproar is fine. And if state department emails are found on the notebook of Abedins ex husband in the course of a teenage girl sexting investigation?

Who cares. Let Hilary be commander in chief while any member of the armed service would face court martial for circulating work related document outside the sanctioned channels.

Have you listened to some rap lyrics. Totally acceptable. No way this shit is meant to demean women. Aren't you a bit ... selective in your sensitivities?

#60 admin

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 11:32 PM

Are you comparing what you and I and a rap singer say about women - or whatever other issue -  with what the president of the US is saying about that same issue in public? Are you delusional?  :D

 

If you'd claim that you like to "grab women by the pussy" in this forum nobody would blink an eye. Sure, some people might get offended but nobody would really care. You are a nobody (as everyone else in this forum).






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