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Time Out: Let's Stop the Blame Game in Europe

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Guest PatrickT

Nobody in germany is scared about the spanish "PODEMOS". Syriza in greece is an experiment how to deal with such people. Evry single plan Syriza had has failed. They are isolated and their country is now in worse conditions than ever before. Varoufarkis has become a joke without any credibility left. Spain sees whats going on in greece and they know very well same would happen there. I also want add that spain is not a united country. The basque and catalanian part are strongly supporting the EU.

 

Austerity simply means that you can only spend what you have. So what alternative is there? Greece has nothing, so it can´t spend anything. When Varoufarkis stepped out and said germany should start a "Merkel Plan" similar to the Marshall-Plan" i could only laugh. He must think we are stupid.

 

Just one day before the greek justice minister claimed openly in TV that he would plan to take away german property in greece. And next day Varoufarkis says we should invest more into greece? Yeah invest more and then they steal it. 

 

Thats not how europeans behave. The Syriza clown troops are no negotiating partner for us. 

 

A government that threatens to steal german property. A government that threatens to allow ISIS-Terrorists into our country is no partner and can not be a partner. 

 

Greece will get any help it needs from us. But no money. As our finance minister Schäuble said, we can send tax officials to greece to get all the tax that rich greeks did steal from their nation. We can freeze their accounts. That would bring greece 80 billion €. 

 

I supposse the next greek government will be more rational. So i suggest we simply wait and let this one break apart. 

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Guest eyoismos

you really dont get it, do you?

 

europe is getting pissed off with germany more and more.

it may have started as a trickle, but it is growing steadily and constantly

 

but even more crazy is the arrogance of so many in germany in the way they speak and the  way they act

 

i mean you laugh at the idea of a merkel plan in the same vain of the marshal pan and discount it with contempt and no consideration .... which implies that the yankees must have been stupid in the first place

 

you bring back the argument about that wanker kammenos, even though we addressed it already, as if you hold some sacred key card .... get this into your head .... kammenos doesnt need to send isis terrorists to europe ...europe breeds their own - last account they have been 3,000 europeans that have book off to support the isis fighting ....that is know!!! (forget bout how many havent surfaced as yet ) and yes ...germans are in the thick of them

 

the list goes on and on

 

i will refer you back to the story i pointed out about that 22 year old that attacked her bullies ...and hope you start getting the picture

 

AGAIN we all know that greece has fucked up and is ultimately paying the price ... and AGAIN i must also point out germany is no saint and bares responsibility

 

you might think greece is a thorn... but i was reading an article somewhere ... that if the german media didnt have fuckall to say worthwhile so greece is its little darling ... which implies greece , the biggest thorn perhaps, is not that small.

 

germany has a problem ... and part of the problem is herself. yes mostly its the others ...perhaps ... and then again ....

Edited by eyoismos

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Guest eyoismos

i was reading this article in the economist
Germany's role in Europe

Has Europe suffered from a lack of German leadership during the euro crisis?

 

the mini vote  result yes: 53% no: 47%

that says something

 

now interesting as the article might be, i have this habit of always also looking at the comments

 

this particular one hit a cord (not that the others had no validity ...far from it... and for "both sides" .. but this one i think says a lot)

 

 

Reasons why Germans should be shaken out of their complacent self righteousness.
-
1.) German fiscal rule breaking was an instrumental cause of the break down of the growth and stability pact. Maastricht rules were serially breached by Germany but Maastricht penalties were never imposed on Germany. One rule for the Germans and another for the South is an historic injustice that will come back to haunt Germans in the future.
-
2.) German export led policies have created massive trade and therefore massive credit imbalances within the single currency. The suppression of German wages via punitively high direct and indirect taxes has reduced the demand of the German market whilst cheap credit flowed from Germany to the South which funded their expansion and their purchases of German goods. Over 50% of German GDP was made up of exports (the highest proportion in the world) and over 50% of those exports went to the eurozone. Germany’s much vaunted achievement in the mid 00’s was to export her unemployment South. Beggar thy neighbour.
-
3.) If the Southern countries had retained their own currencies then automatic stabiliser of their own currency would have protected them from much of the negative consequence of this German policy. The private credit they could obtain would have been far lower (because currency depreciation and inflation risks in lending to those markets would have been far higher), German exports would have been far lower (far less cheap credit to buy them) and the haemorrhaging of capital from the South to the North would have been lower.
-
4.) The blame game orchestrated and imposed by Germany has been to claim that it was government irresponsibility in Southern countries that was responsible for their problems. In fact of course (Greece excepted) these countries had a better record of fiscal discipline in the preceding decade than had Germany herself. This crash was the outcome of private sector irresponsibility not public sector irresponsibility. Irresponsible private lending was excused and protected whilst irresponsible private borrowing was imposed on the public purse – the southern (and Irish) taxpayer. No defaults were allowed as this would have imposed a huge haircut on German banks and financial institutions and completely discounted the value of Germany’s previous export surplus. Deficits and debts in the South could therefore only rise exponentially.
-
5.) Germany then provided guarantees which supported loans raised via bonds from the international capital markets (By the EMS and its predecessor). These were interest bearing loans intended to be profitable for Germany. Lend lease or the Marshal plan or the debt forgiveness agreements of 1951 – they most certainly are not. Clearly there are risks here for the German taxpayer should a debtor country default. However given Germany’s own pre-eminent place as debt defaulter the risks to the market (which actually providing the hard cash) are probably far higher.

 

6.) The imposition of austerity by Germany on everyone else has had disastrous consequences everywhere it has been imposed (including Germany). Greece has collapsed by over 25% since she was placed under the tender ministrations of this pro cyclical regime.
-
7.) Germany refuses to complete monetary union with an economic union (no eurobonds or debt sharing). Whilst this is perfectly understandable it is dishonest to deny that the self evident corollary of refusing burden sharing is to leave the common currency. You can’t have the benefits of the euro if you won’t accept the burdens it imposes. But no under the current German hegemony all the burden of adjustment is placed exclusively on the “worthless” South.
-
8.) If Germany were to try and counteract the effects of sabotaging Southern internal demand (via austerity) by stimulating her own domestic demand into which they could export and generate economic growth, then she would at least be attempting to rebalance the eurozone economy and provide real support for the South. But no - Germany is instead pledged to domestic austerity. Cutting demand in the richest region of the eurozone guarantees that all eurozone boats are sinking - only the rate differs.
-
9.) If Germany were to support QE and unlimited direct ECB purchases of Southern sovereign debt then she would be attempting to mobilise monetary support to counteract the fiscal contraction caused by her mad imposition of universal fiscal austerity. But no – with eurozone unemployment at 12% (Spanish and Greek unemployment above 50%!) the Germans insist that there can be no loosening of monetary policy.
-
10.) Austerity + tight monetary policy has done terrible destruction to the South.

So if the Economist really feels sorry for Germany then it just isn’t paying attention. There are already tens of millions of real victims here - but they do not include the German taxpayer. Nor has Germany been at all reticent in exploiting her strength or imposing her will on the South . Hegemony is as hegemony does and Germany is clearly exercising a brutal hegemony. The ultimate blowback from this deliberate imposition of mass economic suffering on the South will be severe - and Germany will assuredly face a more hostile political and trading environment in the future then she has enjoyed in the past.

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Guest PatrickT

I find it amusing that you believe it should be our duty to throw money into a endless pit and get nothing in return.

 

Germany never forced austerity on greece. All we say is that we don´t pay any money to greece. If you want end austerity you can end it tomorrow. But don´t spend money you don´t have. 

 

Beside that we already installed a minimim wage this year which will boost internal consumption. 

 

Anyways, do you have any ideas which are not based on german tax money? 

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Guest eyoismos

I find it amusing that you believe it should be our duty to throw money into a endless pit and get nothing in return.

 

when the hell did i say that? come on... i dare you!!!!

 

Germany never forced austerity on greece.  come again? are you being serious? All we say is that we don´t pay any money to greece. If you want end austerity you can end it tomorrow. nope ... my mistake ...you where being naive But don´t spend money you don´t have. which is it total conflict with what the backing system is all about and survives on ...lending money to those that dont have, so they can whatever.. in other words, if everybody had that aproach you suggested... do spend what you dont have .... you would be out of a job - yes i know simplistic, but i hope you get the gist of it all

 

Beside that we already installed a minimim wage this year which will boost internal consumption. 

 

Anyways, do you have any ideas which are not based on german tax money? 

you remind me of something from the days of when i worked corporate. i was always speaking my mind to my boss about where the problems where in the company, something he was trying to address by attempting to get feedback ... but i guess he didnt like it itthat i held nothing back it told things as they are, as opposed to the rest that where too busy sucking up ... at one point he kinda got upset and asked, and this i remember vividly, with a really pissed off look in his face - i can still visualize it now - so what you suggest we do to resolve these problems .... i turned to him and said that if i knew solutions, i would be his boss, and he would be working for me. my coworkers where kinda shocked that i spoke this way to the boss. ...and told me so... i was too pissed of to care if i was fired or not. but i also saw that the boss was furious but said nothing, carrying on with whatever bosses do ... after i calmed down i though...hmmm... maybe i should have kept my mouth closed, because i actually might be fired..... the answer came a couple of weeks later .... from simply technician was promoted to regional support my "specialty"

 

so in answer to your question ... no i doubt have solutions. If i did ... i would have been prime minister of greece and putting the screws on Germany's economy (being semi-sarcastic here)

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Guest

You may be speaking your mind eyo but you never say anything even remotely constructive.

 

As far as Germany and Europe : Germany IS the EU. Without Germany there is no EU no Euro no nothing.

And Merkel showed more leadership qualities and initiative in the attempt to resolve the Greek crisis than all 

Greek politicians put together. 

 

So what are you getting at with all that Germany bashing?

Do you think Germany should finance Greek over spending until kingdom come?

 

Well guess what. That's not gonna happen.

 

And if you expect others in Europe to take Greece's side against Germany you are once again dead wrong.

No one in Europe will ever side with Greece cause they are all EUROPEANS and we are the ones who don't belong.

The fact that you don't get it only shows how litle you know about Europe.

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Guest eyoismos

You may be speaking your mind eyo but you never say anything even remotely constructive. like what? ok .. here is one off the cuff.... germany pump a whole lot more money into frontex ...not greece ...frontex ... and with it time and materials and personal too ... to protect herself with the invasion that greece is so "gloriously" having ...win-win situation

 

will that do? if that is a shit idea ... like i said .... i am of the nature of problem seeker.... NOT solution provider

 

As far as Germany and Europe : Germany IS the EU. Without Germany there is no EU no Euro no nothing.

And Merkel showed more leadership qualities and initiative in the attempt to resolve the Greek crisis than all 

Greek politicians put together. 

greek politicians? dont even mention them to me... you know very well what my feelings about them are, as i have repeatedly ranted and raved and thrown my toys out of the cot with these burst arseholes

 

 

So what are you getting at with all that Germany bashing?

Do you think Germany should finance Greek over spending until kingdom come?

hell no ... AND YOU KNOW IT !!!!!!!

Well guess what. That's not gonna happen.

 

And if you expect others in Europe to take Greece's side against Germany you are once again dead wrong.

No one in Europe will ever side with Greece cause they are all EUROPEANS and we are the ones who don't belong.

The fact that you don't get it only shows how little you know about Europe.

 

and you seem to display the lack of knowledge and understanding of the growing intensity (which is not that small any more...not big yet, but certainly not so small)  of the eurosceptics and the protestors and the people on the street ...especially in the southern countries with the bumbling (and probably bought and sold) bureaucrats that supposedly governs them and brought about the mess that they (and we) are in

unless they are not european as well ... in which case i fold with 5 aces up my sleeve

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Nobody in germany is scared about the spanish "PODEMOS". Syriza in greece is an experiment how to deal with such people. Evry single plan Syriza had has failed. They are isolated and their country is now in worse conditions than ever before. Varoufarkis has become a joke without any credibility left. Spain sees whats going on in greece and they know very well same would happen there. I also want add that spain is not a united country. The basque and catalanian part are strongly supporting the EU.

 

Austerity simply means that you can only spend what you have. So what alternative is there? Greece has nothing, so it can´t spend anything. When Varoufarkis stepped out and said germany should start a "Merkel Plan" similar to the Marshall-Plan" i could only laugh. He must think we are stupid.

 

Just one day before the greek justice minister claimed openly in TV that he would plan to take away german property in greece. And next day Varoufarkis says we should invest more into greece? Yeah invest more and then they steal it. 

 

Thats not how europeans behave. The Syriza clown troops are no negotiating partner for us. 

 

A government that threatens to steal german property. A government that threatens to allow ISIS-Terrorists into our country is no partner and can not be a partner. 

 

Greece will get any help it needs from us. But no money. As our finance minister Schäuble said, we can send tax officials to greece to get all the tax that rich greeks did steal from their nation. We can freeze their accounts. That would bring greece 80 billion €. 

 

I supposse the next greek government will be more rational. So i suggest we simply wait and let this one break apart. 

 

 

 

Patrick you must watch the German version of Fox News.

 

A few things here, stop taking statements out of context. Many of the statements you are making about property confiscation have to deal with Germany invading, occupying, destroying, cold blood executing, ... during WWII. I wont deny that most of the Syriza politicians are over their heads, but if there was no Austerity only solution given to Greece, Syriza would be today nothing but a minor party in Greece. Austerity made Syriza the Governing party. Going back to property confiscations it is simple. Germany, you and others have been condescending and insulting from the beginning, Greece running up a debt seemed to be unforgiven, and unacceptable, regardless of situations, factors, ... yet you seem to forget all the forgiveness Greece gave Germany!
 

I am not debating that Greece did not messed up, so did the Greek people, and so did their politicians. But  Germany like many here claim lead the EU, and the EU has been demanding specific actions from Greece, while Greece has not perfectly followed orders for the most part they have. Now tell me how has that worked out for Greece.

 

And now about all the billions that the EU gave Greece, that is mostly bull, the EU, IMF, .. bailed out the banks (90% of the funds) and only (10%) went to the Greek state. And all bailout are mostly to pay off other loans. This was all about keeping German, French, ... banks alive, using your EU taxpayer dollars to bail them out, and looking for the Greek middle class to pay back the bill.

 

Now about those loans, some were for infrastructure improvements that yes Greece f-up with its corruption, some were for social programs, but also many of them were to protect Greece from it bully neighbor. Which brings up a great fact, now that Germany, France, and England the so called leaders of  Europe have benefited greatly from all this bullying, and know what is right but have kept their mouths shut, but have had no problems selling overpriced sometimes defective military equipment to both sides, and Germany doing much of that by offering large bribes.

 

So like I said, the Greeks, Greece are much to blame, but you show up here pointing fingers, as if your nation is completely innocent.
 

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Ajax what did the Byzantium contribute to Europe, what famous Greek scientist, artist, philosopher, were there during the Byzantium or after, seriously that is the European membership criteria. Is this question asked of every European nation. And your so called road trip via Europe, and Europe ending at Croatia, as the last place who said that European cities should all look the same. You lived in the states, does every American city look the same, talk the same, and act the same.

 

Eyo or nobody else should have to go do a google search for you. My half Filipino/Greek kids know exactly what Greece contribute to the world and so do you, but you chose to hold Greece hostage to the fact that they were occupied for hundreds of years (400), how many people lost their religion, culture and language during such a long occupation, but you want to say that they lost their European character because of that, why because they adopted some Turkish foods, customs and words. The second they got their independence (a weak one at that), they started reconnecting to their roots, not over night, but they started reclaiming their Hellenic heritage.
 

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Guest

Ajax what did the Byzantium contribute to Europe, what famous Greek scientist, artist, philosopher, were there during the Byzantium or after, seriously that is the European membership criteria. Is this question asked of every European nation. And your so called road trip via Europe, and Europe ending at Croatia, as the last place who said that European cities should all look the same. You lived in the states, does every American city look the same, talk the same, and act the same.

 

Eyo or nobody else should have to go do a google search for you. My half Filipino/Greek kids know exactly what Greece contribute to the world and so do you, but you chose to hold Greece hostage to the fact that they were occupied for hundreds of years (400), how many people lost their religion, culture and language during such a long occupation, but you want to say that they lost their European character because of that, why because they adopted some Turkish foods, customs and words. The second they got their independence (a weak one at that), they started reconnecting to their roots, not over night, but they started reclaiming their Hellenic heritage.

 

The membership criteria is:

 

Adherence to the same norms and principles. Those who are unwilling to follow the rules of a collective do not Blong in that collective.

You don't join a socker team to play handball and you don't join a European team to Ottomanize.

 

Your half-filipino kids know as much as my half-mexican kids about Greece: Gyros pita, souvlaki, mussaka and tzatziki.

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Guest eyoismos

Η Λαγκάρντ "εκτελεί" τον Βαρουφάκη! "Δεν ξέρω εάν θα κάνει αυτά που συμφωνήσαμε" - Το παράδειγμα με το γάλα

 

Ιδιαίτερη αναφορά έκανε η Κριστίν Λαγκάρντ στην ανάγκη δομικών μεταρρυθμίσεων στην Ελλάδα ώστε να αναπτυχθεί η οικονομία και να δημιουργηθούν θέσεις εργασίας, ενώ ειδική αναφορά έκανε στην ανάγκη εφαρμογή των μεταρρυθμίσεων.

Μάλιστα για την αδυναμία εφαρμογής έφερε και ένα συγκεκριμένο παράδειγμα για το βρεφικό γάλα. Όπως είπε το βρεφικό γάλα πωλείτο μόνο στα φαρμακεία. Όταν άρχισε να πωλείται και στα σούπερ μάρκετ οι τιμές αμέσως έπεσαν, αλλά μετά η πώληση επέστρεψε χωρίς λόγο πάλι μόνο στα φαρμακεία

 

 

τώρα δεν ξέρω αν αληθεύει αυτό, ή ακόμα είναι κάτι που κληρονομήθηκε απο τους προηγούμενους μάπες που μας φερανε εδώ ... οπως και να ΄ναι ομως ...αν ναι .... είναι πραγματικά ντιπ για ντιπ μαλακοδερμένοι  αυτοί που μας κυβερνούνε - μέχρι αυτήν την αηδία προστατευτικό κλίκων ψήφου έχουμε φθάσει ;;;;

 

βέβαια χρειάζεται επαλήθευση εδώ ...γιατί υπάρχει και η πιθανότητα, και δεν είναι λίγη, οτι  αυτό το παράδειγμα είναι μέρος της κακόβουλης προπαγάνδας εναντίον ελλάδας - τίποτα πια δεν μπορεί κανείς να μην αμφισβητήσει

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Guest eyoismos

Ο Πανούσης απειλεί να παραιτηθεί εάν δεν πάρει αποφάσεις ο Τσίπρας για τους κουκουλοφόρους

 

 

Η ανεξέλεγκτη δράση των αντιεξουσιαστών όλες αυτές τις ημέρες, με τα σοβαρά επεισόδια γύρω από το Πολυτεχνείο να συμβαίνουν σε εβδομαδιαία βάση, την εισβολή και τα συνθήματα στη Βουλή, φαίνεται πως είναι η σταγόνα που έχει ξεχειλίσει το ποτήρι για τον αναπληρωτή υπουργό Προστασίας του Πολίτη, Γιάννη Πανούση ο οποίος ωστόσο δεν λαμβάνει κανένα μέτρο και απλά σχολιάζει περιμένοντας τις εντολές του Μαξίμου

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Guest

Η Λαγκάρντ "εκτελεί" τον Βαρουφάκη! "Δεν ξέρω εάν θα κάνει αυτά που συμφωνήσαμε" - Το παράδειγμα με το γάλα

 

 

τώρα δεν ξέρω αν αληθεύει αυτό, ή ακόμα είναι κάτι που κληρονομήθηκε απο τους προηγούμενους μάπες που μας φερανε εδώ ... οπως και να ΄ναι ομως ...αν ναι .... είναι πραγματικά ντιπ για ντιπ μαλακοδερμένοι  αυτοί που μας κυβερνούνε - μέχρι αυτήν την αηδία προστατευτικό κλίκων ψήφου έχουμε φθάσει ;;;;

 

βέβαια χρειάζεται επαλήθευση εδώ ...γιατί υπάρχει και η πιθανότητα, και δεν είναι λίγη, οτι  αυτό το παράδειγμα είναι μέρος της κακόβουλης προπαγάνδας εναντίον ελλάδας - τίποτα πια δεν μπορεί κανείς να μην αμφισβητήσει

Don't blame everything on propaganda. Greece's problems won't be solved unless the Greeks stop talking and start doing.

Or as Goethe puts it:

 

 

Es ist nicht genug zu wissen - man muss auch anwenden.

Es ist nicht genug zu wollen - man muss auch tun.

 

 

Although, I doubt that in the case of Greece the WOLLEN part is given.

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