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Guest FriendofGreece

Abolishing ancient Greek from Greek high schools

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Guest FriendofGreece

I did not know that ancient Greek is still taught in Greek high schools. That sure makes the learning of ancient and modern Greek quite heavy for the students. What is the necessity to learn ancient Greek? I don't know if the Italians also learn Latin.

 

Looks to me that language evolves over time and it is not really necessary to learn the ancient version, especially if the modern version is simpler.

 

Mind you, in India, they are talking about putting Sanskrit in the curriculum because they think it is the mother of all languages, probably of Greek too.  :P

 

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2016/06/07/education-minister-on-a-mission-to-abolish-ancient-greek-lessons-in-greek-high-schools/

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Guest FriendofGreece

I think if the students learn Greek history and Greek civilization, there is a lot to learn already to know themselves who they are, without necessarily having to learn ancient Greek. There is a lot nowadays for students to learn in school, with all the developments in science, etc. I think it is better for them to spend time to learn these new things. 

 

Once they are adults, and they have mastered modern Greek, if they are interested in learning ancient Greek, they can take a course in university, let's say. So, yes, maybe move the ancient Greek language to university level rather than leave it at high school level. Otherwise, they may not be proficient neither in ancient nor modern Greek when they graduate from high school. 

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Guest eyoismos

I think if the students learn Greek history and Greek civilization, there is a lot to learn already to know themselves who they are, without necessarily having to learn ancient Greek. There is a lot nowadays for students to learn in school, with all the developments in science, etc. I think it is better for them to spend time to learn these new things. 

 

Once they are adults, and they have mastered modern Greek, if they are interested in learning ancient Greek, they can take a course in university, let's say. So, yes, maybe move the ancient Greek language to university level rather than leave it at high school level. Otherwise, they may not be proficient neither in ancient nor modern Greek when they graduate from high school. 

 

I think what i was implying went completely over your head

 

tell you what ... with that logic  ....

 

we shouldn't bother with such trivial things like the Pythagorean theorem or maybe archemides screw, as they are so cliché , and these but an example

 

oh shite ... those are in the realm of sciences and not linguistics, which by the way are part of the identity of those who speak a language

 

my bad

 

lets take it to the next level, .... stop using the greek character set, lets go roman script, and lets kill the 5 "i" sounding letters/combinations or whatever .... kill the gender issues, and lets go english ...with more exceptions to exceptions, let alone rules,  in their grammar and spelling, ......, abolish past present and future tenses and variations thereof, etc .... but then wasting sooo much time regurgitating the absurdity o the english language ... would be such a bonus in the greek schools

 

prime example

 

 

1) The bandage was wound around his leg to cover his wound.

2) The wind was too strong to wind the sail.

3) The dump was full, and had to refuse further refuse.

4) We must polish the Polish furniture.

5) He could lead if he would get the lead out.

6) The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the desert.

7) "No time like the present," he said.  "It's time to present her the present."

8) A large-mouthed bass was painted on the head of the bass drum.

9) Startled, the dove dove into the bushes.

10) I did not object to the object.

11) The insurance on the invalid was invalid.

12) There was a row among the oarsmen about who could row the best.

13) We were too close to the door to close it.

14) When does are near, a buck does funny things.

15) Not watching their steps, a seamstress and a sewer fell into a sewer.

16) On her farm, a woman worked to produce produce.

17) She wanted to sow, but her sow ate the grain; so she chose to sew.

18) Next, she hitched her cow to a plough to make a trough.

19) Then she decided to combine her combines.

20) That evening, she told her beau to go slow.

21) But she shed a tear when she saw the tear in her dress.

22) I had to subject the subject to a test.

23) How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend?

24) It might be wise to bow to a man with a bow.

25) John had to write to the right people to keep his rights during his rites.

26) The ewe with the flu knew who was due to get you through to the gnu with the number-two shoe, too!

 

 

oh wait ....english is not such a good idea....

 

now with the brexit we should go more "european" ...by simplifying english even more.

and get rid of those horrid inconsistencies

 

 

The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility.

 

As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5- year phase-in plan that would become known as “Euro-English”.

 

In the first year, “s” will replace the soft “c”. Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard “c” will be dropped in favour of “k”. This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter.

 

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome “ph” will be replaced with “f”. This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter.

 

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.

 

Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.

 

Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent “e” in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away.

 

By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing “th” with “z” and “w” with “v”.

 

During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary “o” kan be dropd from vords kontaining “ou” and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensi bl riten styl.

 

Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi TU understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru.

 

Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze forst plas.

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Guest eyoismos

mind you ... maybe a better option would be to go chinese

 

after all 1.5 billion chinese cant all be wrong

 

:D

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Guest FriendofGreece

Take it easy, that was just a joke I made about Sanskrit. 

 

The article did say about the difficulties the students have in learning Modern Greek and Ancient Greek. I guess as educators, it is a choice they have to make and I agree with them. You can learn Greek sciences with Modern Greek too, you know. Modern Greek also helps in learning European languages. I really don't see any problem.

 

As for Chinese (Mandarin), if you can't handle Ancient Greek while knowing Modern Greek, it is going to be a tough task learning Chinese. If you want, go for English, you can learn it even in the street, no need to go to school for that.  :P

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Guest eyoismos

If you want, go for English, you can learn it even in the street, no need to go to school for that.  :P

 

as opposed to modern greek, right ?

 

1_Ellhnika2Agglika-6.jpg

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The words most frequently used, by Greeks, to describe Greek reality are

 

χαράτσι

πλιάτσικο

αχταρμάς

 

So what's the point of teaching Ancient Greek?

What's the point of laying claim on a culture that has nothing to do with our own.

It is about freaking time to stop teaching ancient Greek and thereby admit that our culture is not Greek.

As long as we are in denial and don't acknowledge who we are we wont address our shortcomings as a society.

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Guest HappyAsHellas

If you don't want anything to do with ancient Greek culture, can we here in Scotland claim it for our own? I mean when your ancestors were building societies and philosophy, constructing temples, amphitheatres and the like, mines were scrabbling about in caves looking for rats without the ability to scratch our name in the dirt with a stick. By all means be anti Greek if you want, but to deny your past beggars belief.

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If you don't want anything to do with ancient Greek culture, can we here in Scotland claim it for our own? I mean when your ancestors were building societies and philosophy, constructing temples, amphitheatres and the like, mines were scrabbling about in caves looking for rats without the ability to scratch our name in the dirt with a stick. By all means be anti Greek if you want, but to deny your past beggars belief.

They were not "our ancestors". We, contemporary Greeks, used to call ourselves ρωμιοί, we are the descendants of the slave population of the eastern roman empire who became citizens after Christianity was adopted as the state religion of the empire. Our ancestors did not create Greek civilisation. We are the descendants of the people who destroyed Greek civilisation end exterminated the Greeks. Our culture is the antithesis of Greek culture. Our ancestors never created a thing.

 

In fact, you Scots have a more valid claim to Ancient Greek culture than we modern Greeks. Unlike us, your people rediscovered ancient Greek thought, disseminated, reworded and made it part of your own culture. We never did anything like that. Our appreciation of ancient Greece looks as follows:

 

agalma-leonida-3.png

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Guest eyoismos

yeah well .... guess the scots where not under turkish yolk for a couple of centuries for them to have the opportunity to "rediscover" the ancient greeks

 

seriously dude .... jut because "we" , and by "we" , i suggest those greeks still in greece, at the time allegedly ,,, at least according to you, "forgot" .... its a case more of survival ..... in other words .... what good is philosophies and all the rest.... when you are a conquered nation, and "we" desperately tried to survive form day to day.... to the point of ..... well ...typical example .... you know why the expression " "the Hiotes go two at a ime together"? ....just an example

 

but wait .... a great part of the economy was held in greek hands ... the ones that stayed behind .... hell ... they also introduced the turks to the anceints .... and all the rest

 

not the rest .... that booked out to europe .... with the rest of the intellectuals from Constantinople ... thus laying the foundations of the renaissance and europe coming out of its "dark ages"  .... and introduced the west to ancient greek thought and ll the rest ... the vary ones that subsequently, through its later generations ....... because those in the diaspora never forgot their roots ...  INSTIGATED the basis of liberation

 

but you always had a problem and selectively blind to the fact that  time has  a consistent evenly paced continuity , with ups and downs... but  only desire to see moments in isolation in order to make preposterous conclusions

 

what next? that the skops are direct decedents of ancient Macedonia ?

 

oh wait ... you have said that often enough

 

or maybe modern greeks are actually Christianized turks, so where tossed to the side as rejects from their own culture?

 

oh wait.... you pretty much implied that often enough too

 

or maybe the podian greeks are another tribe altogether?

 

fuck me sideways.... you have categorically  have said that too

 

sorry bud ... . but you have issues .... bordering on the edge of an inferiority complex .... thus sucking up to  ....

 

oh forget it

 

its pointless .... everybody pretty much knows what you are, and if they dont, they quickly do

 

a last cause

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I have an inferiority complex?

Why because I take pride in my Asian ancestry and embrace my Anatolian heritage?
It is you pretend Europeans, pretend heirs of Ancient Greece, that have issues.
Are you so ashamed of your race and history that you have to pretend to be something you are not?

I bet that you too can understand the following text without a Turkish dictionary:

Ο τουρκορωμιός νομίζει, πως είναι λεβέντης, με ωραίο σουλούπι, σαΐνι, μερακλής, τσίφτης, ασίκης, χουβαρντάς, ντόμπρος, μάγκας, τσακμάκι, μπεσαλής, ντερβίσης και καπάτσος, αλλά είναι χαϊβάνι, ντουβάρι, χαφιές, τεμπέλης, τενεκές, τσογλάνι με μυαλό πιλάφι και το ρίχνει στο χουζούρι και στο ραχάτι – μαχμουρλής και λαπάς στο ντιβάνι, τσιγκούνης και κοιτάει το ταβάνι, όταν τρώει ιμάμ μπαϊλντί, κιοφτέ και γιαουρτλού.
Έχει σεβντά με τον παρά, το μπαξίσι, το κέφι και το γλέντι και τον σαματά, ενώ γουστάρει και το νταχτιρντί.
Δεν παίρνει χαμπάρι, όταν τον πιάνει ο νταλγκάς για καμιά νταρντάνα ζουμπούλι και τη στριμώξει κάτω από κανένα κιόσκι ή καμιά αλάνα ή γιαπί. Άμα δεν του κάτσει, καβουρντίζεται η καρδιά του και κάνει σαματά με πολλούς μπελάδες.



Why don't you try to translate this into Ancient Greek?
Don't bother. Even if you knew Ancient Greek you would fail because many of the concepts which our spoken Western-Turkish language describes so accurately are absent from ancient Greek. And so are words that could convey the meaning of μερακλής, τσογλάνι, πλιάτσικο etc... That's why I support the abolition of Ancient Greek in favour of Turkish which is the true ancestor of our spoken language.

When are you going to acknowledge that your "Greekness" has nothing to do with Ancient Greece. It has to do with being baptised into the Orthodox church:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdtzAFgdrHM

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Guest eyoismos

wow! so modern greek has got a couple of turkish words in it, actually quite a few ...therefore our origins are turkish

 

i guess then, so much of the english language is greek in origin , therefore, the brit origins are greek

 

talk about absurdity in your arguments

 

somebody flew over the cuckoo nest, i guess

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You are creating a straw-man argument. All I said is that a great part of our daily life "Greek" vocabulary has Turkish origins. And you don't seem to dispute that. So what is your problem? You resent me for putting the "Zolotas shoe" on the other foot?

 

Besides, all languages spoken in Europe today have their origins in Anatolia. The first attested occurrence of what you call Indo-European languages is Hittite which originates in Anatolia. The term Indo-European makes sense when applied to the distribution of those languages but it is a misnomer when used to imply origins since those languages originate in Anatolia and were then carried eastward by Persian peoples and westward by Ancient Greek colonists. The languages spoken in Europe today, with the exception of Euskera, have nothing in common with the languages spoken in Europe 2800 years ago. 

 

But this is not about linguistics. It is about Greek national Identity. The Greek constitution of 1827, which marks the beginning of Greek National Identity, defines a Greek as:

 

1. Every one who lives on the territory of the newly established Greek state AND believe in Christ (literal translation of Πιστεύουσιν εις Χριστόν)

2. Every one who lives within the territory of the Ottoman empire and believes in Jesus Christ seeking refuge in the new established Greek state.

 

Do you see any reference to Ancient Hellas and her ideas values and believes in the document? Do you see any reference to Ancient Greece in our current constitution? Of course not. Why is that?

 

I'll tell you.

The Greek constitution defines Citizen in accordance with the law of the East Roman Empire. Every Christian subject of the empire was a citizen (Ρωμιος). The word Έλλην (Greek) was a derogative in the Empire and it is still used as such in pretty much every Orthodox Liturgy. As an example I'll mention the hymn to St Georg whom we celebrate as the patron saint of the "Hellenic Armed Forces". On the 23rd of April he is celebrated on every Hellenic armed forces base. During the celebration the priest hails the saint with the words:

 

Χαίρε, θεούς ψευδωνύμους συντρίψας

Hail to the crusher of the false (Greek) Gods  

 

Χαίρε, ο συντρίψας τα άψυχα είδωλα

Hail to the crusher of the soulless Idols (Ancient Greek sculptures)

 

Χαίρε, δαιμόνων ο καταλύτης

Hail to the dissolver of demons

 

χαίρε, Ελλήνων ο καθαιρέτης (καθαίρεση meaning destruction, demolition, purge, removal)

Hail DESTROYER of the Greeks

 

This is quite comical actually. We are the only Nation in the world that hails the patron saint of our defence force as our destroyer. And as the destroyer of ancient Greek works of art we claim as OUR heritage!

 

If this does not exemplify "Greek" cognitive dissonance I don't know what does.

 

Nevertheless, the whole thing does make sense. We are not "Greeks" we are Romioi of the eastern roman empire we don't have an Ethnic Identity but a purely religious one. The Ottoman successors of the East Roman empire adopted the East Roman practice and classified all Orthodox of the Ottoman empire as part of the RUM (Roman) Millet (Nation). And the Romioi of the newly liberated western parts of the Ottoman empire adopted the same concept of Millet in their constitution. They chose to call the their country Greece for one reason:

 

They realised that the "Grecomania" of Europe will help them gather support for their endeavour. 

 

And this has defined our schizophrenic behaviour ever since. Outward we pretend to be Greeks basking in the bygone glories of a civilisation that is not only completely alien to us but one we deeply despise as every impartial observer who has attended a Greek Orthodox liturgy can confirm.

 

Now eyo,

how about you stop creating strawman arguments and address my observations. Are those not factual? Did I misquote the Greek constitution or the praise our Church gives to St George and every other saint? So where the hell do you see a "consistent evenly paced continuity" ? Not in the culture for sure. You think you will find it in ancestry? Well you wont. All you have to do is review the texts of Roman historians and geographers. Greece had been depopulated and repopulated three times over before the edict of Milan and the establishment of Constantinople. Even the Pagans of Greece were not of Greek Ancestry at that point. The very creator of "Hellenismos",  the last Pagan emperor Julianus, was a Gaul.

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Guest eyoismos

hahahahahaha

 

talk about strawman argument

 

was it not you who came up with "Turkish which is the true ancestor of our spoken language"

 

but as usual back-stepping  again and changing the flow to save face

 

and yes, greece, in today's form , has been multi-invaded. and because of this , there have been multiple changes and influences throughout. no argument there. but by the same token many have not.

 

and depopulation is relative. far too many people like yourself think ONLY of the higher "classes"  (most of which that survived booked out to other places) and conveniently forget about the masses ...the very ones that get influenced and influence in return. not to mention that greeks right throughout history have always immigrated to the rest of the world ...thus ... and for example, the pondians , your alleged roots

 

i repeat .. TIME has  a consistent evenly paced continuity ..... i point it out because you ignore what is said .... TIME

 

but AS USUAL ...distort what i said, in order to come up with your own "devices"

 

as for languages ..... surely you jest in your argument? why not take it all the way. we all came from the monkeys and we all spoke gibberish .

 

and yes i know we are all supposed to have so called indo-european roots

 

 

The cradle of the Indo-Europeans may never be known but an ongoing scholarly debate about the original homeland of Proto-Indo-European (PIE), may some day shed light on the ancestors of all Indo-European languages as well as the people who spoken it. There are two schools of thought:

  • Some scholars (e.g., Marija Gimbutas) propose that PIE originated in the steppes north of the Blackand Caspian Seas (the Kurgan hypothesis). Kurgan is the Russian word of Turkic origin for a type of burial mound over a burial chamber. The Kurgan hypothesis combines archaeology with linguistics to trace the diffusion of kurgans from the steppes into southeastern Europe, providing support for the existence ot a Kurgan culture that reflected an early presence of Indo-European people in the steppes and southeastern Europe from the 5th to the 3rd millenium BC.
  • Other scholars (e.g., Gamkrelidze and Ivanov) suggest that PIE originated around 7,000 BC in Anatolia, a stretch of land that lies between the Blackand Mediterranean seas. It lies across the Aegean Sea to the east of Greece and is thus usually known by its Greek name Anatolia (Asia Minor). Today, Anatolia is the Asian part of modern Turkey.

 

in other words ... not conclusive at all

 

apart from the fact that bringing indo-european whatever implies all the languages mentioned in the article

http://aboutworldlanguages.com/indo-european-language-family

makes all those that speak them the same

 

absurd an argument as anything and everything  else said about this issue from you, ie. identity of greeks and all other nations mostly in europe

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Eyo,

 

I'm surprised that you don't attempt to address my main points. Maybe you overlooked them so I'll list them again in short form:

 

1. The first Constitution of the "Greek" state establishes one and only one test for "Greekness" and that's the believe in Christ

(Πιστεύουσιν εις Χριστόν). It doesn't say anything about "Ethnicity" it defines "Greek Identity" purely by affiliation with a certain religion.

 

You don't seem to dispute this and yet you insist on "Greek" ancestry as if all, or at least the vast majority, of the Christ believers of the

Ottoman empire and the Romioi of the East Roman empire were of Greek ethnic origin. You introduce a notion of Greek Ethnic Identity which the authors of our first constitution omit. What exactly is this assumption of yours based on? Wishful thinking?

 

2. We celebrate St. George, and most of our saints (Nicholas, John, Basil...) as the "crushers of soulless idols" aka Ancient Greek works of art, and yet at the same time we claim the remainder of those "Idols" as our heritage and demand the Elgin Marbles back.

Do you see the schizophrenia in this?

 

3. We celebrate St George, the patron saint of our "Greek" army as the Destroyer of the Greeks while we claim "Greekness"!

Don't you see the cognitive dissonance in this?

 

I'll gladly explain why I see the Kurgan hypothesis of Gimbutas as nothing more the Slavic exceptionalism driven Wiki-Scholarship and why the Anatolian hypothesis is the only one that is backed by facts. But would you please address the core points I summarised above first.

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The constitution of 1827 that was agreed upon at the 3rd National assembly at Troizina is a refinement of the preliminary constitution that was signed at the National Assembly at Epidauros. Involved in the process were representatives with very diverse backgrounds. There were of course captains of the revolutionary army, clerics, landowners, merchants and what not. The prevalent tone was that of the European enlightenment and there were some very smart people present. Ioannis Kapodistrias (3rd assembly) was one of them. He was in the diplomatic service of Tsar Alexander of Russia and his main accomplishment while on that job was to secure the independence of Switzerland from French, German, Italian ambitions. He took part in the drafting of the Swiss constitution and in the design of the cantonal system.

 

Naturally, the constitution of 1827 is an incredible document. Far more concise and liberal then any constitution of that time. In fact, it was 43 years ahead of the US constitution cause not only does it explicitly ban slavery from the get go (1822 draft) it even offers asylum and protection to all who have escaped from slavery. The US constitution baned slavery with the 13th amendment of 1865. It really is a remarkable document and in my opinion the pinnacle of Greek constitutional history. Things went downhill from there. Our current constitution is a self contradictory collection of crap.

 

Anyhow, I do not mention the fact that the constitution establishes belief in Christ as the test for Greekness to criticize the authors or the document. The vast majority of the people who lived in Greece spoke Turkish or Albanian and they identified with the village they lived in or the clan they belonged to. A Greek Ethnic identity did not exist in the 1800's and that's why the authors of the constitution went with "Belief in Christ" as the measure for Greekness.

 

So far from spanning into classic antiquity Greek National Identity begins in 1827 (or 1822 since that definition was already in the first draft). And the foundation for that identity as laid out in the constitution is: "Belief in Christ"

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Guest FriendofGreece

I guess being under Ottoman rule, the people who lived in Greece had to speak Turkish. It seems to me that does not mean they were not Greek. Identification with the village or clan is similar to Ancient Greeks identifying themselves to the city-states they belonged to.

 

Why did you say that the Greeks were exterminated, is there evidence of that somewhere?

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Guest HappyAsHellas

 The vast majority of the people who lived in Greece spoke Turkish or Albanian and they identified with the village they lived in or the clan they belonged to. A Greek Ethnic identity did not exist in the 1800's and that's why the authors of the constitution went with "Belief in Christ" as the measure for Greekness.

 

 

As far as I was aware, the Greeks were more or less left to their own devices under ottoman times (within rules obviously) and places like the Ionian islands spoke their language as they always had. This is from a Greek history site:

 

The Ottoman Turks, who conquered Constantinople in 1453 and the Greek peninsula by the end of the decade, gave the Greeks a large degree of local autonomy. Communal affairs were controlled by the Orthodox Church, and Greek merchants ranged throughout the world on their business ventures, but Greece itself was poverty-stricken.

 

I was aware that later on the Italians tried to force their language on the local populations, and have met older Greeks who's first language was Italian. I am genuinely interested in this and any links to sites outlining the history of the languages primarily of use at the time would be very welcome.

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Fyi.

 

The Ionian Islands were never under Ottoman rule. They passed from East Roman to Venetian and then during Napoleons rule to French hands.

The French were driven out by the Russians which led to the formation of the Septinsular Republic under the amical protection of England.

In 1862 England handed the Islands to the Greek state.

 

As far as the Ottomans granting autonomy to conquered peoples, well this is not exactly correct. True, in the case of the "Rum Millet" (aka Greeks) the authority over religious, and most other, matters was place in the hands of the Patriarch in Constantinople. The way this was handled was quite simple the Sultan would set a steep starting bid and auction the post of Patriarch off. Powerful families, such as the Fanariote, would bid in that auction to get their guy on the chair. This was a lucrative but also risky position. It was lucrative because the Patriarch had the authority to impose taxes on his flock. That way he, or rather his sponsors, would make back the money they invested in the auction plus some fat profit. Which explains why Greece was poverty stricken.

 

It was risky cause the Sultan could at any time chase the Patriarch out of office or drag him out and have him publicly executed. The Patriarchate would be put up for auction again and since there was a strict no refund policy the Sultan had an economic incentive to put the post up for auction as often as possible. That way he would make money while the Patriarchate would burden the Christian peasants and tradesman with even more taxes. The Sultan goes blameless, the Christian peasants go hungry.

 

Besides, as an autocrat, the Sultan could do as he pleased. If he wanted to reward some Turk nobleman he would go and uproot whole villages to make room. He could also round up whom ever he pleased and sell them off into slavery. And he could just exterminate a whole prefecture because he felt like it. All those things did happen in the Ottoman Empire.

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I was aware that later on the Italians tried to force their language on the local populations, and have met older Greeks who's first language was Italian. I am genuinely interested in this and any links to sites outlining the history of the languages primarily of use at the time would be very welcome.[/size]

This is a rather "Loaded" topic and you'll have a hard time finding objective literature on the matter. I don't know about the Italians but I do know quite a bit about the linguistic, ethnic, tribal and coinciding political divisions in Makedonia where I was born.

 

I was schooled in 1971, and at that time the divisions, though still present, had almost faded away. My Grandparents, Parents and other older relatives experienced those things first hand. I can only convey what I learned from them.

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I guess being under Ottoman rule, the people who lived in Greece had to speak Turkish. It seems to me that does not mean they were not Greek. Identification with the village or clan is similar to Ancient Greeks identifying themselves to the city-states they belonged to.

 

Why did you say that the Greeks were exterminated, is there evidence of that somewhere?

Of course there is evidence. There is historiography from the Roman and East Roman times, there are journals from European adventurers who traveled through Greece during Ottoman times and during the war of Independence. The (Genetic) demise of the ancient Greeks is well documented.

It is in fact so well documented that it completely debunks Fallmerayer's theory. The latter claims that the original Greek population had been replace by Slavic peoples who migrated into Greece from the 6th century onward. Fallmerayer is wrong in the sense that there weren't any Greeks left to be replaced by then.

 

Reagardles, I'm not fixated on Genetics. That fact that we are NOT the biologic descendants of the ancient Greeks is not what prevents us from (figuratively speaking) picking up where they left off.

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Guest FriendofGreece

Thanks for the info, Ajaxmonkey. When I have time, I will make some research because I am interested by the subject of the Ancient Greeks.

 

I have been thinking about what you said about the Constitution. There is a gap between the original great draft to the final (current) version which is scrap. What happened in between?

 

In my opinion, could the reason they chose religion as being the identifier for Greek be because of the Orthodox Church's control at that time, considering how the Church had power under the Ottoman rule? From what I know, there were Greeks and non-Greeks who were under the Church's wing as opposed to the Ottoman Muslims.

 

Furthermore, it seems to me that the Ancient Greeks were not restricted to the Greek mainland of what is Greece now, but they were also in Anatolia and further. With the Greek empire, the Roman empire, the Byzantine empire, there was Greek presence in pretty much many places.

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I found on Amazon this book that talks about the destruction of ancient Greek culture and the killing of the ancient Greeks by the Christians and Romans.

 

Obviously, the remaining Greeks had to convert to Christianity to survive. In my opinion, Greeks had such a painful history with their own names, imagine the dark precipice Christianity has put the world at that time when being a Hellene was equivalent to being a pagan or a barbarian. From what I understand, the word romiosini meant Roman Greeks, as the Greeks became Roman citizens. The history is complicated with the Byzantine Empire and the Greeks under the Ottoman rule, but I believe, based on my quick research, that the ancient Greeks were not exterminated. 

 

The religion link is unfortunate due to the circumstances of the control by the Orthodox Church, I think, and maybe it is time to delink the religion and change the Constitution. But then how do we go on defining what being a Greek means other than by language, culture, customs and maybe other variables, considering the Greeks were pretty much in various places?

 

 

The Passion of the Greeks: Christianity and the Rape of the Hellenes Hardcover – December 1, 2006
 
"This book tells the secret story of the conflict between Greeks and Christians in late antiquity, especially from the fourth to the sixth centuries. It reveals how Christianity, assisted and funded by the Roman Empire, conspired to kill the Greeks whom it had dehumanized, branding them idolaters and pagans. Christianity s genocidal policies against the Greeks and their civilization almost succeeded; the "converted" Greeks were forced to abandon even their name and call themselves Romans from the fifth to the nineteenth centuries. Moreover, the Christianization of Greece was a catastrophe that precipitated the fall of Rome and engendered the dark ages of Western civilization. The Christians made Greece a cemetery, which quite unintentionally preserved the aftermath of their murder and genocide. At a time of religious conflict between Christianity and Islam, this book highlights the intolerant nature of monotheism. It tells a story never told before, opening the possibility we may get closer to the Greeks, understanding their passion and their achievements. The Greeks resisted Christianity for centuries. Like god Prometheus who gave them fire and the arts, so did the Greeks create our world through the Renaissance, which brought to light the remnants of Greek culture long ago buried by Christianity."

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FoG:

 

I have been thinking about what you said about the Constitution. There is a gap between the original great draft to the final (current) version which is scrap. What happened in between?

much happened. To much to list here so i'll give a few samples though.

 

In 1831 Ioannis Kappodistrias, THE key figure of the early Greek state, was assasinated by the Mavromichalis Clan. The motive for the assasins was Kappodistrias attempt to strip the Clans of their immense power, in a bid to rid Greek administration from cronyism, nepotism and corruption.

The result: Kappodistrias is dead and burried and the cronyism and corruption of the clans remains to this day alive and kicking in Greece.

 

Another prominent member of the 1st assembly, Theodoros Kairis, was accused of Heresy by the Church. A Greek court prosecuted in the name of the Church and Kairis was imprisoned on the isle of Syros awaiting trial and in case of conviction the death penalty. He died in jail 10 days before the trial. After his death a mob of "Believers" led by Orthodox clerics went to Syros exhumed his body cut it open and filled it with lime (the one in mortar).

 

Kairis's crime: He founded an Orphanage were he would teach kids "Greek Arts" aka Geometry and Astronomy as well as comparative religion, navigation, agriculture, applied mathematics, accounting, natural science and advanced mathematics.

 

Btw. Kairis was a priest himself. A polymath who spoke English, Latin, German Italian and Ancient Greek fluently, perhaps the leading Intellectual of Greece at that time. And also a man who fought and was wounded in the war of independence.

 

And then there were the European powers who forced the constitutional reform of 1832 with that they abolished the Greek Republic in favor of the Kingdom of Greece and placed Otto of Bavaria on the throne.

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FoG:

 

Furthermore, it seems to me that the Ancient Greeks were not restricted to the Greek mainland of what is Greece now, but they were also in Anatolia and further. With the Greek empire, the Roman empire, the Byzantine empire, there was Greek presence in pretty much many places.

Do not confuse Greek Speakers with Greeks. Some of Ashokas pillars found in western India and Afgjanistan were inscribed in Greek. This does indicate the presence of Greek speakers in western India but not the presence of a Greek Ethnicity. Greek was after the conquests of Alexander the Lingua Franca and there were Greek Speakers (not neceserily Ethnic Greeks) all over the place.

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FoG:

 

Greeks had such a painful history with their own names, imagine the dark precipice Christianity has put the world at that time when being a Hellene was equivalent to being a pagan or a barbarian.

You are getting entangled in the rationalizations of 19th century Orthodox apologetics. When the church hails St. George as the "Destroyer of the Greeks" they mean the ETHNIC GREEKS and not the pagans.

 

The Orthodox Church spend 1700 years basking in the glory of their greatest achievement: The eradication of the GREEKS. And there are thousands of Orthodox texts celebrating that achievement. Suddenly Greek became fashionable again and in the aftermath of the European enlightenment there is a Greek state that lays a claim on Ancient Greece. So the Church is faced with a bit of a problem. They have to explain away their undying hatred of everything Greek which they put so much effort in documenting for 1700 Years. What do they do?

 

Greeks? No no no. We didnt mean "The Greeks" or you guys by that. We meant the "Evil Pagans"

 

This rationalization doesn't hold water. Take St George for example. He was martyred (allegedly) by Roman Hands in accordance with Roman Law under the rule of a Roman Pagan Emperor. And yet he is celebrated as the destroyer of the Greeks and their works? Why is that? Millions of Christians were (allegedly) martyred in the Arenas of the Roman empire by ROMANS and under ROMAN rule and law and yet you wont find an anti Roman sentiment in the texts of the Church. So where does this hostility against the Greeks come from.

 

Non Christians (aka Pagans) are refered to as "Ethnikoi" in eastern Christianity. This is the Septuagint translation of the Jewish term "Goyim". Meaning "The Nations" as opposed to "The Jews". Christianity follows the Judaic traditions and thus calls all non Christians "The Ethnics" the only exception to the Rule are "The Greeks" which goes to show yo that the term doesn't mean just "Pagans" but the Greek people.

 

So when the Church celebrates the "Destruction of The Greeks" it celebrates the destruction of the Greek People and not the destruction of Pagans.

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Guest HappyAsHellas

Imagine how many more wonderful archaeological sites and artefacts would be around today if it wasn't for christianity. Religion is the opium for the masses - administered by the despotic few.

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