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Guest FriendofGreece

Are modern Greeks the descendants of ancient Greeks?

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Guest FriendofGreece

Just out of curiosity and nothing else:

 

This is a question I have pondered myself, as to whether modern Greeks are the descendants of ancient Greeks, just like whether modern Egyptians are the descendants of ancient Egyptians. Undoubtedly it must be a question many persons have asked themselves too. Is there any scientific evidence or DNA that proves the link?  

 

Here is an interesting article.

 

http://archhades.blogspot.ca/2014/12/historical-greek-racial-continuity-and.html

 

There is some discussion by the person called SuperStallin below:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/16zl9b/are_modern_greeks_egyptians_etc_mostly_descended/

 

 

If anyone knows of any scientific studies or research, please share with us. Thank you.

 

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Most modern Egyptians are Arabs, but this doesn't mean that there's no connection between the ancient Egyptians and modern Egyptians. This connection can be a "cultural" one on the most part, but it can also be a connection through DNA.

 

In Europe there has been migrations, wars, rape etc. etc. for millennia. There's no "pure" Greek or Italian or German, or English or whatever race. We're all a mix of races, people, cultures. Most European nations, as we know them today, were mostly developed recently, in the past 200-300 years. Most borders as we know them today are even more recent, maybe 100 years old or less in most cases.

 

Modern Greeks are the cultural descendants of ancient Greeks. Are all modern Greeks 100% pure blooded "Greeks"? Problaby not. On the other hand, what do we mean when we say "pure-blooded" Greeks"? Are we talking about the Achaeans? The Dorians? The Ionians? The Minoans? The Byzantines? The Pontians? The Thracians? The Macedonians?...the list goes on and on. Obviously most modern Greeks will have traces of some of these people, plus more. Greece has been a crossroads for millennia. There have been countless wars and migrations of several different races of people during this time.

 

What connects today's Greeks with the ancient Greeks is the land, the language and the culture. 

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Guest FriendofGreece

No, of course, I don't believe there are "pure races" and as you said, Admin, there were movements of people and borders were not the same. Especially, the ancient Greeks being in quite a big expanse of land, after Alexander, so they were spread over and mixed with other people. But, I think despite all that, the "basic" genetics must have remained, they are not completely wiped out. 

 

In addition to genetics, Greeks differentiate themselves by their language, culture and most of all, by their Christian religion which, I think, has played a big role in keeping them together under the Ottoman period. And I mean, Greeks are Christian, and the difference could not be greater from Ottoman or Muslim people.

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Guest FriendofGreece

Just to add that whether they are Achaeans, Dorians, Ionians, Minoans, Byzantines, Pontians, Thracians, Macedonians, it seems to me they are all Greeks. 

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Guest eyoismos

 

Are Egyptians Africans or Arabs?

By Shahira Amin

Monday, 10 September 2012

 
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In July 2007 I was commissioned by CNN to produce a feature story on Egyptian identity. The four-minute piece was to air on CNN’s Inside Africa, a weekly show that takes pride in showing viewers the ‘real’ Africa in all its diversity, rich heritage, and culture. Unlike other programmes that often focus on poverty and disease when covering the dark continent , this is a show that looks at the success stories of Africans. My producer in Atlanta , Georgia , at the time was Cynthia Nelson, an African-American . She asked me to devote my four- minute piece to whether Egyptians really consider themselves Africans.

 

I hired a camera crew and set out on my mission, thinking I would only prove the obvious: Wasn’t Egypt in North Africa? Therefore, Egyptians are Africans. But it wasn’t simply a matter of geographical location-the issue turned out to be much more complex than that. I did not know it at the time but I was to be most astonished at what I would soon discover.

I spent the next couple of days interviewing hundreds of Egyptians– not just academics and researchers but also laymen and women in different districts in Cairo — asking how they view themselves. My question raised a few eyebrows among people on the streets, the majority of whom replied ” I’m a Muslim Arab, of course ” or “an Arab Muslim .” They shrugged their shoulders and looked perplexed as they responded for wasn’t it an already-known fact that Egyptians are Arabs and that Egypt has a majority Muslim population ?

 

A few of the interviewees said that they “were descendants of the Pharoahs” but surprisingly, none in the sample interviewed thought of themselves as Africans.

 

Their responses led me to contemplate the conceptual Sahara divide. For centuries, the Sahara Desert has been viewed as a vast impenetrable barrier dividing our continent into two distinct areas : Northern “white” and sub-Saharan “black” Africa. The countries south of the Sahara have long been considered authentically “African” while those to the north have been perceived as Mediterranean, Middle Eastern or Islamic. While most anthropologists refute this perception of Africa as “inaccurate”, it has nevertheless, influenced the way people think about the continent and our region in particular. Apparently, it has also impacted the way Egyptians view themselves. Many Egyptians are oblivious to their “African-ness “, failing to identify themselves as Africans. When confronted with the reality of their African roots, some Egyptians are stunned, others reluctant to acknowledge the fact. Though I hate to admit it, we are a racist people.

 

African refugees living in Egypt often complain of discrimination and verbal and physical harassment on the streets. Egyptians look down on darker-skinned sub-Saharans as their “inferiors,” they claim. Historian Jill Kamel confirms this, explaining that it may be attributed to the fact that across generations, Egypt’s elite community was made up mostly of lighter-skinned Egyptians whereas the underprivileged Egyptians were those toiling under the hot sun to earn their bread. ”Egyptians have thus come to associate fair skin with elitism,” she said.

 

The nationalist pan-Arabism ideology promoted by the late President Gamal Abdel Nasser in the fifties and sixties led his supporters (the Nasserists) to take pride in their Arab identity. The notion of pan- Arabism gained wider acceptance in the seventies when, in the wake of the Gulf oil boom, millions of Egyptians traveled to oil-rich Gulf states to earn their livelihoods. They adopted many of the habits of the host countries, bringing home a new conservatism which was reflected in their style of dress and mannerisms. Author and writer Galal Amin discusses the impact of Wahhabism, a rigid form of Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia, on Egyptian culture at length in his book “Whatever Happened to the Egyptians” a two-part series that chronicles the changes brought about by the mass exodus to the Gulf in the seventies.

 

President Hosni Mubarak (who was toppled by a mass uprising early last year) had adopted anti-Islamist policies and tried to impose more ‘liberal’ values on the society. His attempts however, were largely futile and many Egyptians became more conservative as a result of their opposition to what they believed were “Western-imposed values.” Some skeptics doubt Mubarak’s true intentions, claiming that he “was more of an Islamist than the Islamists.” They argue that “he allowed our satellite space to be infiltrated by a host of Saudi-financed TV channels that dictate the way people behave.” Others tend to believe that Egyptians turned to religion as a result of Mubarak’s repressive policies. Mubarak may also have encouraged the trend of Islamism to keep Egyptians occupied with religion and away from politics. Indeed, the political repression and economic hardships that marked the era of the ousted authoritarian leader were contributing factors to the growing religiosity in recent decades. Meanwhile, the then-outlawed but tolerated Muslim Brotherhood had stepped in to fill the vacuum left by the government, extending badly-needed charity services to society’s downtrodden and poor. In so doing, the group won many converts to its cause.

 

The result of all of the above is today’s Egypt-a polarised country divided along ideological lines: Islamists on the one hand and liberals and Christians on the other. The ‘new ‘ Egypt has witnessed a rise in Islamism but roughly half the population continues to resist the change and is desperately clinging on to the fast-fading ‘secular’ image. Emad Gad, researcher and political analyst at Al Ahram Center for Political Studies told me in the days after the January 25 Revolution that “We have claimed Egypt back from the grip of the Saudis” and that the revolution was about “Egyptianising ‘Egypt once again after years of “attempts to Saudise it.” A year and a half later, his statements couldn’t be further from the truth as the reality on the ground proves the country has taken a different course.

 

Moreover, Egyptians have increasingly used religious symbols like the hijab or Muslim headscarf for women and men growing their beards to assert their Islamic identity. Such symbols do not necessarily mean greater piety -Egyptians have simply become “more visibly pious.” Teenage girls often take on the veil as a result of peer pressure , said Dr.Madiha El Safty, Professor of Sociology at the American University in Cairo.

 

While the signs of increasing piety may indeed be the result of peer pressure, a political statement against the West’s policies vis-a-vis the Middle East or even economic (with a large segment of the population unable to afford to keep up with fashion trends or visit the hairdressers on a regular basis), the fact remains that the signs of ‘Islamisation’ of the society are increasing. The lifting of the ban on hijab for Egyptian State TV anchors this week is another step in that direction.

 

It’s important not to forget that while a portion of the society is increasingly “Islamising,” there’s another portion that is showing fierce resistance to the trend. In any free, democratic society the people have a right to make their own personal choices. If we hope to revive our glorious past and re-create the Egypt that was once a melting pot of cultures and a crossroad of civilisations, we must celebrate our diversity and take pride in our roots: African, Mediterranean or Arab. It is this mix that makes us who we are: Egyptians.

 

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Guest eyoismos

Just to add that whether they are Achaeans, Dorians, Ionians, Minoans, Byzantines, Pontians, Thracians, Macedonians, it seems to me they are all Greeks. 

technically according to the ancients they where all hellenes

 

to which i would add a strong dose of a stick or two up their own asses

 

 

It is difficult to discuss the ancient Greeks as a single people. For much of Greek history the Greeks lived in hundreds of separate, fiercely individual communities, all with strong nationalistic pride, and even strongly different dialects. Even the term Greeks is a late appellation, probably used by the Romans as Graeci (in the Greek form Graekoi) in reference to one small northwestern tribe. The Greeks themselves, when not identifying themselves as autocthonically Athenian, Spartan, or Corinthian, called themselves the sons of Hellen, after a legendary lineage for the Greeks found in the writings of the eighth-century B. C.E. Boeotian poet Hesiod. The strong individualism and chauvinism of the Greek city-states were in great part a consequence of the fragmentation of the Greeks’ homeland, either on mainland Greece, a peninsula crossed by high mountain ranges and with a rugged coast, or throughout the thousands of small islands of the eastern Mediterranean.

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Guest

There is no continuity in Greece. Not geneticaly and even less so culturaly. Greek and Christian are two mutualy exclusive things. Christianity and Hellenism are diametricaly opposite world views and only an idiot would bunch them together. Christianity is related to Islam since both share Judaism as their source. The differences between Islam and Christianity are rather minor. Neither has anything in common with Hellenism.  

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Guest FriendofGreece

I think in the case of the modern Egyptians, even if they are genetically related to the ancient Egyptians despite being mixed with Arabs, because ancient Egyptian knowledge was in the hands of a few elites, there was a lot of loss of civilization/culture and knowledge as a result of the Arab invasion of Egypt, as opposed to Greek civilization which is more widely known. 

 

In the case of Greeks, a few years back, my question was how did the Greeks survive the 400 years of the Ottomans. It is a very long time, 400 years. Even India was a colony of England only for 200 years. After some research and discussion with other Greeks, I arrived at the conclusion that it was grace to the Greek priests who helped keep the Greek language and culture. Of course, history is more complex than that, and there are plenty of articles one can read to gain more knowledge on that period, but the end result is that the Greeks survived as a population with the help of Christianity. I do believe that without the Greek priests, the Greeks and the Greek culture would have been absorbed by the Ottoman barbarians. 

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Guest FriendofGreece

By the way, considering the various city-states, when did Greece first become unified?

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Do you mean when modern Greece became a "country" as we know it today? That would be 1830 I believe. The first Greek republic (and then Kingdom of Greece...) only included Peloponnese, part of central Greece excluding Thessaly, and some of the Aegean islands. 

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I think in the case of the modern Egyptians, even if they are genetically related to the ancient Egyptians despite being mixed with Arabs, because ancient Egyptian knowledge was in the hands of a few elites, there was a lot of loss of civilization/culture and knowledge as a result of the Arab invasion of Egypt, as opposed to Greek civilization which is more widely known. 

 

In the case of Greeks, a few years back, my question was how did the Greeks survive the 400 years of the Ottomans. It is a very long time, 400 years. Even India was a colony of England only for 200 years. After some research and discussion with other Greeks, I arrived at the conclusion that it was grace to the Greek priests who helped keep the Greek language and culture. Of course, history is more complex than that, and there are plenty of articles one can read to gain more knowledge on that period, but the end result is that the Greeks survived as a population with the help of Christianity. I do believe that without the Greek priests, the Greeks and the Greek culture would have been absorbed by the Ottoman barbarians. 

 

I'll let ajaxmonkey reply about the Greek priests and their role during the Ottoman rule of Greece. His reply is probably going to be more candid and entertaining than mine  :D .

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Not in the sense we understand it today. It was still fragmented.

Athenians, Spartans, Thebans, Macedonians etc. always saw themselves as Greeks and as "related" to each other, but they also saw themselves first as Athenians, Spartans etc. and then as anything else.

 

They clearly thought that all outsiders were "barbarians" or "different" than them, but this didn't stop them from killing or hating each other too in a typical Greek fashion  :D

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Guest FriendofGreece

Looking at how modern Greeks "kill" or "hate" each other, who could ever have the slightest doubt that they are the descendants of ancient Greeks?  :P

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Guest eyoismos

what?

 

so the ancients didnt unite (sort off because of necessity ) to say "hello" to the persians way before big A?

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Guest

I thought Greece was unified under Alexander the Great, no?

 

Greece was conquered by Alexander in a very brutal war. And even when he went to the east, many Ionians fought on the side of the Persians and none by the side of Alexander. At the battle of Granicus about 20.000 Ionians fought alongside the Persians. And they continued fighting after the Persians ran. All of them died.

 

As far as genetic continuity is concerned, well,

How many of the people living in Greece today are the descendants of the people who lived there 100 years ago?

The answer is less than half. The population exchange in the 20's the influx of immigrants from the former Soviet Union in the 90's and the influx of immigrants mainly from Asia and Africa after the 90's had their impact.

 

Knowing that, how can anyone claim that today's Greeks can have anything in common with the people who inhabited the land 2500 years ago?

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Ionians, Aeolians, Macedonians etc. did not only live in what is today known as the Greek mainland. In that respect all those people who came from Asia Minor, Pontos, former Soviet Union etc. had (at least some...) Greek blood in them. If anything, I'd argue that these people coming from areas where they were surrounded by non-Greeks most likely kept their heritage and gene pool "more Greek" than the Greeks in mainland Greece where they were overcome by several invaders over the centuries.

 

To my knowledge, and from what I've read and heard, up until 1922 when there was the exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey most Greek communities in Asia Minor (along the coast but also deep in Anatolia too) kept their Greek language and traditions going for centuries. Also 99% of the time Greeks used to marry other Greeks and they'd very rarely mix with other cultures living in their areas (Turks, Syrians, Armenians, other). Based on this I'd assume that most Greeks who came from Anatolia were most likely more "Greek" in terms of their bloodline, as compared to the Greeks in mainland Greece.

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Guest eyoismos

...the influx of immigrants from the former Soviet Union....

 

υπάρχει βέβαια ο κίνδυνος να πάθεις κανένα καρδιοεγκεφαλικό επεισόδιο αλλα .....

 

Ρωσοπόντιος αρσενικό, Ρωσοπόντια θηλυκό

 

Έλληνας που ζει στην Ελλάδα αλλά έχει γεννηθεί και μεγαλώσει σε περιοχές της πρώην Σοβιετικής Ένωσης, κυρίως σε αυτές που συνορεύουν με τον Εύξεινο Πόντο

 

 

και σε αφήνω με κάτι που η οθωμανική ψυχή σου ίσως καταλάβει ενα δυό πράγματα απο μερικές αλήθειες (όχι όλες)

 

 

Ένας σύγχρονος όρος που καθιερώθηκε στην νεοελληνική γλώσσα τις τελευταίες δεκαετίες είναι το λήμμα «ρωσοπόντιος». Τί ακριβώς σημαίνει; Ποια εθνικότητα, ποια εθνική ταυτότητα, ποια εθνική καταγωγή μαρτυρά και προσδιορίζει; Αμφιβάλλω αν μπορεί κάποιος να απαντήσει ικανοποιητικά έστω. Διότι δόκιμος όρος δεν είναι. Πριν καιρό, είχε τύχει να περνάω από τον χώρο που διαμαρτύρονταν ομογενείς από τις χώρες της πρώην Σοβιετικής Ένωσης για την περικοπή των συντάξεών τους. Μια ηλικιωμένη κυρία περπατούσε με ένα παιδάκι, το οποίο την ρώτησε απορημένα «ποιοι ήτανε αυτοί που φώναζαν». Η απάντηση ήταν: «αυτοί είναι Ρωσοπόντιοι, παιδί μου». Αλήθεια όμως τι σημαίνει ο όρος Ρωσοπόντιος; Ποιοι είναι αυτοί οι περίφημοι Ρωσοπόντιοι που όλοι μας έχουμε ακούσει;

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Ο όρος χρησιμοποιήθηκε στην Ελλάδα σωρηδόν για να χαρακτηρίσει τους ομογενείς Πόντιους που ξεκίνησαν να έρχονται στην Ελλάδα από την δεκαετία του 1960 και κυρίως στα τέλη της δεκαετίας του 1980 και τη δεκαετία του 1990. Τους θεωρούσανε δηλαδή ως ρωσοποιημένους Πόντιους, ως αλλογενείς πληθυσμούς ο οποίος δεν είχε πάνω του τίποτα το ελληνικό και ερχόταν να μετοικίσει στη χώρα μας, ψάχνωντας καλύτερες συνθήκες διαβίωσης.  Πώς γίνεται έλεγαν οι «σοφοί Ελληναράδες» τότε, να είναι Έλληνες αυτοί που είναι πιο σκουρόχρωμοι από εμάς, που μιλάνε ρωσικά και άλλες διαλέκτους, που ήρθανε από τον Καύκασο;  Θεωρώ σε αυτό το σημείο, μια μικρή και ερασιτεχνική μεν απόλυτα σωστή δε, ιστορική αναδρομή απαραίτητη, προς κατανόησιν της σκέψης μου.

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Το συγκεκριμένο φύλο που συγκαταλέγεται ανάμεσα  σε αυτά που αποτέλεσαν τους αρχαιότερους πρόγονους της Ελλάδας, ζούσε στα παράλια του Πόντου και τις γύρω περιοχές. Στα τέλη του 1800 αλλά κυρίως κατά τη διάρκεια των κεμαλικών εκκαθαρίσεων και της Ποντιακής γενοκτονίας, οι Πόντιοι στράφηκαν είτε προς την Ελλάδα και τα πρόσφατα απελευθερωμένα εδάφη είτε προς την περιοχή του Καυκάσου, της Κριμαίας και της νότιας Σοβιετικής Ένωσης. Η δεύτερη περίπτωση είναι αυτή που μας αφορά.

Είτε από αυστηρότητα των κομμουνιστικών καθεστώτων που επέβαλλαν υποχρεωτικές αλλαγές επιθέτων, εκμάθηση ρωσικής γλώσσας και αλλαγή ηθών και εθίμων, είτε όταν η κεντρική εξουσία έδινε την οδυνηρή επιλογή στους ποντιακούς πληθυσμούς να διαλέξουν ανάμεσα σε γλώσσα ή θρησκεία, είτε τέλος από τη συνεχή τριβή με τους γηγενείς πληθυσμούς των εδαφών στα οποία ζούσαν, κάποιοι έχασαν την ταυτότητά τους και εξαφανίστηκαν στην απεραντοσύνη της νεάς πατρίδας. Οι περισσότεροι όμως, κατόρθωσαν παράλληλα με τη νέα ζωή, να συντηρήσουν στην οικογένειά τους την ποντιακή καταγωγή και παράδοσή τους.

Οργανωμένοι σε κοινότητες στις νέες τους πατρίδες, κράτησαν το πνεύμα του ελληνισμού και την ενθύμηση της καταγωγής τους άσβεστα. Σε πολλές περιτώσεις μάλιστα, υπάρχουν αμέτρητες αναφορές για διαμάχες και προστριβές τους με τους γηγενείς πληθυσμούς που τους περιθωριοποιούσαν. Όταν διαλύθηκε η Σοβιετική Ένωση και πολλά κράτη αποσχίστηκαν, οι περιορισμοί των μετακινήσεων που είχαν επιβληθεί άρθηκαν. Έτσι παρουσιάστηκε η ευκαιρία της μετακόμισης στην μόνη πατρίδα που είχε απομείνει ελεύθερη και ακμαία τότε, προσφέροντας μια ευκαιρία για μια νέα και καλύτερη ζωή. Και αυτή ήταν η Ελλάδα, η οποία αποδέχτηκε τον ρόλο της ως μητριά των ανθρώπων αυτών. Και λέω μητριά, διότι τα πατρογονικά τους εδάφη ήταν ο Πόντος και όχι η Ελλάδα αρχικώς.

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Φροντίσαμε όμως σαν κοινωνία να μην τους καλωσορίσουμε σαν αδέρφια, παρόλο που μιλούσανε τα Ποντιακά, μια αρχαιοελληνική διάλεκτο. Παρόλο που οι χοροί και η μουσική τους κατάγονταν από αρχαιοελληνικούς παιάνες και όχι μόνο. Παρόλη τη θέληση τους για ενσωμάτωση στη κοινωνία, με όρεξη για δουλειά. Εμάς μας ενδιέφερε η διαφορετικότητά τους στην εμφάνιση, ξεχνώντας ότι μεγάλωσαν από αρχαιοτάτων χρόνων σε διαφορετικά εδάφη και κλιματολογικές συνθήκες. Μας ενδιέφερε ότι μιλούσαν ρωσικά, ξεχνώντας επίσης ότι ήτανε υποχρεωμένοι από τους Σοβιετικούς να τα μάθουνε καθώς επίσης και ότι αν θέλανε να βρουν δουλειά και να ζήσουν εκεί που ήτανε, έπρεπε να μπορούν να συννενοηθούν.

Εναντιωθήκαμε υποστηρίζοντας το δίκιο μας, όταν τους παρασχέθηκαν διευκολύνσεις σε δάνεια και έξοδα κατοικίας, μη αναλογιζόμενοι πως το κράτος που ανέλαβε σαν μητριά τη κηδεμονία τους, έπρεπε να τους βοηθήσει να ορθοποδήσουν και να ενταχθούν το συντομότερο στη κοινωνία, όπως έκανε με τους πρόσφυγες της Μικρασιατικής καταστροφής. Αγνοήσαμε το γεγονός πως στην ουσία ήτανε το δεύτερο κύμα προσφύγων του 1922… Οι άνθρωποι αυτοί λοιπόν, έγιναν δέκτες ρατσιστικών σχολίων και υπαινιγμών, διακρίσεων στις δουλειές και τη καθημερινότητα, βιώνοντας στην ουσία μια δεύτερη ξενιτιά. Περισσότερο κακό όμως δημιουργήθηκε στα μικρά παιδιά που πρωτοπήγαν σε ελληνικά σχολεία και απολύτως φυσιολογικά δυσκολεύτηκαν, διότι στην Σοβιετική Ένωση, σκόπιμα δεν υπήρχε η δυνατότητα ελληνικής εκπαίδευσης. Υπάρχουν παραδείγματα από μαθητές που εκτός από συμμαθητές τους, έγιναν δέκτες ρατσιστικών διαχωρισμών και από καθηγητές. Η ρετσινιά «Ρωσοπόντιος» στιγμάτισε όλους αυτούς τους ανθρώπους.

pontioi-67-4-1-300x225.jpg

Γιατί όμως τότε εμείς οι «Ελληναράδες» που θέλαμε να προασπίσουμε την καθαρότητα του ελληνικού αίματος, να μην χαρακτηρίσουμε και κάποιους άλλους ως Γερμανοπόντιους, Αυστραλοπόντιους, Αμερικανοπόντιους, κτλ; Βέβαια ανάμεσα σε όσους επαναπατρίστηκαν, υπήρχαν σίγουρα και περιπτώσεις αρκετές στον αριθμό που δεν ήταν Πόντιοι απλώς χρησιμοποίησαν τη καταγωγή κάποιου ξεχασμένου πρόγονού τους για να οικειοποιηθούν μια νέα ταυτότητα. Οι παράνομες όμως και λανθασμένες αυτές ελληνοποιήσεις έγιναν ρετσινιά που γενικεύτηκε από εμάς και αφορούσε το σύνολο των Ποντίων. Σε καμιά περίπτωση όμως αυτό δεν αποτελούσε φταίξιμο των Ποντίων, τουναντίον αφορούσε τους κρατικούς ελεγκτικούς μηχανισμούς.

Σε κάθε περίπτωση, μετά από δύο γεμάτες δεκαετίες, οι περισσότεροι εξ αυτών δημιούργησαν οικογένειες και τα παιδιά τους ενσωματώθηκαν με γοργούς ρυθμούς, ως όφειλαν άλλωστε. Ειρωνικές και ρατσιστικές συμπεριφορές όμως σαν αυτή της ηλικιωμένης κυρίας που σας περιέγραψα στην αρχή, έρχονται να μας θυμίσουν την ανάρμοστη συμπεριφορά και υποδοχή της Ελλάδας, που αναδείχτηκε σε «κακιά μητριά». Έστω και καθυστερημένα, πιστεύω πως σαν κοινωνία και σαν πολιτικό σύστημα, θα πρέπει να αναλογιστούμε τα λάθη που διαπράξαμε και να φροντίσουμε να εξαλείψουμε παρόμοιες συμπεριφορές και να σβήσουμε μια για πάντα τη λέξη «Ρωσοπόντιος». Διότι το περιεχόμενο του όρου, εκτός από ειρωνικό και ρατσιστικό, είναι ιστορικό και πολιτικό ατόπημα.  Ο όρος είναι αδόκιμος και άστοχος.

 

Υ.Γ.: φυσικά και δε θα μπορούσα να παραλείψω να αναφέρω το ξακουστό άσμα του λαϊκού τραγουδιστή Στέλιου Καζαντζίδη, ο οποίος αναφερόμενος σε αυτό το «κύμα εθνικιστικού ρατσισμού», τραγουδά: «στα ξένα είμαι Έλληνας και στην Ελλάδα ξένος».

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Guest eyoismos

 

Πέντε οσπίτια έχτισα κι ασ'όλα ξεσπίτουμαι
Πρόσφυγας είμ'ασο κουνί μ', Θε μ' θα παλαλούμαι.

Πατρίδα μ αραεύω σε αμόν καταραμένος
Σα ξένα είμαι Έλληνας και σην Ελλάδαν ξένος

Όσπιτα 'θεκα ανάμεσα σ'ορμήν και ποταμάκρη
Πεγάδια μαρμαρόχτιστα, νερόν αμόν το δάκρυ.

Πατρίδα μ αραεύω σε αμόν καταραμένος
Σα ξένα είμαι Έλληνας και σην Ελλάδαν ξένος

Και τώρα αδακές διψώ νερό να πίνω 'κι έχω
Εντρέπομαι να ψάλαβω τα χείλοπα μ να βρέχω

Πατρίδα μ αραεύω σε αμόν καταραμένος
Σα ξένα είμαι Έλληνας και σην Ελλάδαν ξένος
Σα ξένα είμαι Έλληνας και σην Ελλάδαν ξένος
Σα ξένα είμαι Έλληνας και σην Ελλάδαν ξένος

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Guest FriendofGreece

What happened after Alexander died, did Greece get fragmented into city-states or kingdoms like before?

 

What Alexander did in conquering the other "states" is similar, I think, to what other conquerors did. For example, the Qin emperor fought and conquered all the other kingdoms and united China for the first time and became the first Chinese emperor. But it came at a high cost of lives. Same thing with Ashoka who unified India, so violent was he that he atoned afterwards by spreading Buddhism. And like Alexander who died young, the Qin dynasty did not last long. I don't know about Ashoka how long he lasted.

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Guest eyoismos

after big Alex went to meet his gods, his generals split up the spoils between themselves

 

seconds later they where brawling between themselves

 

so yeah ... technically the city state mentalities and wars among themselves continued, but in a grander scale

 

greek-philosophy-and-the-hellenistic-wor

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Guest eyoismos

what is interesting is that the greek rule of egypt left its mark , to the point of ...well ... see for your self

 

Toll gate of Alexandria (sign in Greek and Arabic)

8509136.jpg

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Guest FriendofGreece

It was such a huge empire. I wonder what could have happened if Alexander had not gone to India but had stopped the conquests and stayed and governed his empire.

 

For sure, the ancient Greeks had spread from the Greek mainland over to the areas of the Greek empire, which would mean even more of ancient Greek genetics is found outside of mainland Greece. Definitely, modern Greeks are linked to ancient Greeks. There is no way the ancient Greeks disappeared without leaving a trace. We are not talking about epidemies decimating a whole population. 

 

Another question I have also would be what would have happened had Alexander gone to China? Huge question. Could Hellenism be incorporated into Chinese civilization, one way or another? 

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Guest eyoismos

blame everything on Big Alex's horse,Bucephalus
 
as the story goes ...
 

Plutarch tells the story of how, in 344 BC, at twelve or thirteen years of age, Alexander won the horse by making a wager with his father. A horse dealer named Philonicus the Thessalian offered Bucephalus to King Philip II for the remarkably high sum of 13 talents, but because no one could tame the animal, Philip was not interested. However, Alexander was, and he offered to pay himself should he fail to tame it.

Alexander was given a chance and surprised all by subduing it. He spoke soothingly to the horse and turned it towards the sun so that it could no longer see its own shadow, which had been the cause of its distress. Dropping his fluttering cloak as well, Alexander successfully tamed the horse. Plutarch says that the incident so impressed Philip that he told the boy, "O my son, look thee out a kingdom equal to and worthy of thyself, for Macedonia is too little for thee.

 

yup ... Big alex went east because his horse was afraid of his shadow going west

 

:P

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Guest FriendofGreece

Throughout history, we have seen many empires but a question I always had was what makes the Greek empire different from all other empires? Why aren't we, in the modern world, influenced by the Persians, the Ottomans, the Mongols, etc., even though they had big empires too? The Romans were, of course, hellenized and the Mongols were sinicized, but what about the Persians and Ottomans?

 

Anyhow, this is a nice video on "Who were the Greeks"? Link to 2/2, I still have to watch 1/2.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ1Pn8DRp6o

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