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San Bernardino shooting

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It's really hard to make sense of any of these shootings, but this one seems to be more baffling than any other shooting we've seen these past few years.

 

Firstly, it was carried out by a couple, not just one crazy loner. So there must have been some previous planning involved. Secondly, the couple had a 6 month old baby which they left with the grandmother before they went on their shooting rampage. This is just incomprehensible. What parent (especially mother...) would leave their 6 month old baby to go mass murder people?

 

This gun craziness in the US has gone too far. Every time something like this happens we hear some politicians say harsh words about the gun laws, but then nothing happens. I understand that the gun supporting lobby is strong, but enough is enough. People in the US need to act now. Enough with this craziness.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/04/us/san-bernardino-shooting-syed-rizwan-farook.html?_r=0

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Guest FriendofGreece

It is like in the Wild Wild West in the US. Really shocking to see those things so often. 

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Nobody has ever been killed by a gun. A firearm is just a tool with no will of its own. The ones doing the killing are people with murderous intent, such as the couple involved in the incident in SB. It is not the "Gun craziness" that led to the event but the craziness of the people who committed the act. And what may the source of this craziness be?

 

Here you have two people with an immigration background who are devout Muslims shooting up a public gathering and no matter if you like it or not this will boost the anti-immigration anti-muslim sentiment in the US. Of course you can argue that this was only one of hundreds of mass shootings happening in the US every year, and would be factualy right to do so, yet the public will rather focus on the "Craziness" of immigrant muslims before dealing with the homegorwn crazies.

 

I'm afraid this will have implications for us Greeks too. There are already voices in Congress calling for the exclusion of Greece from the Visa Waiver program due to Greece being a gateway for potential extremists into the west. In Europe there are calls for the exclusion of Greece from the Shengen treaty. So it looks like Greece is going to pay a price for what happened in Paris and in San Bernadino.

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 This is just incomprehensible. What parent (especially mother...) would leave their 6 month old baby to go mass murder people?

 

 

 

a muslim mother

 

 

i know I'm bad for using peoples religion against them...but hey we need to wake up, its happening too often to ignore 

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It's not fair to generalize. I know of many muslim mothers who are excellent mothers and many christian mothers who are despicable.

 

This behaviour is not normal and I don't think it really has to do with religion. Fanaticism of any kind make people do things they'd never do under normal circumstances.

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FAIR? there is nothing fair about any of these killings...I'm sure this muslim mother made a sacrifice for her child (usually a large sum of money is paid to their families after the killings )

 

What are we suppose to feel about these people who are under the influence of such depraved religion where killing another human being is considered an honour?

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It's hard for us (westerners) to understand the motives of these people. Especially the ones who live in the west and experience the freedom they don't have in their countries.

 

I'm not defending their actions by any means. I'm just saying that I don't understand them and I can't relate to them. It's also completely outside of my understanding the choice of this couple kill all those innocent people and alos bring a little baby in this world 6 months ago and then leave this baby without parents. I just cannot understand or relate to this.

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Guest HappyAsHellas

I think going down the line of blaming Islam in general is the type of thinking Mr Trump would be happy with. How many other shootings in America this year were carried out by muslims? I also think it is way too simplistic to state that a gun never killed anyone. Whilst on the one hand this may be true to an extent, if you can just nip into your local supermarket and come out armed to the teeth, then society itself has taken a wrong turn somewhere. It stands to reason that the more guns there are, the chances of these acts happening must increase exponentially. I don't have the answers to this, and don't believe anyone does, but I'm open to suggestions.

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I think going down the line of blaming Islam in general is the type of thinking Mr Trump would be happy with. How many other shootings in America this year were carried out by muslims? I also think it is way too simplistic to state that a gun never killed anyone. Whilst on the one hand this may be true to an extent, if you can just nip into your local supermarket and come out armed to the teeth, then society itself has taken a wrong turn somewhere. It stands to reason that the more guns there are, the chances of these acts happening must increase exponentially. I don't have the answers to this, and don't believe anyone does, but I'm open to suggestions.

Gun ownership rates and homicide rates just don't corelate.

OECD-and-Small-Arms-Survey.png

Switzerland may have twice the gun ownership Rate of Greece but less than half the momicide rate.New Zealand has the same gun rate as Greece but close to twice the momicide rate. Chile has one ninth the gun ownership of the US but the same homicide rate. Guns do not kill people there are societal factors that play a role here. Drugs in Mexico. Organized crime in Russia. Honor killings in Turkey and who knows what else. As far as the US is concerned, there is a certain "Paranoia" at play which is certainly fueled by certain conservative groups. And it may be true that you can not criminalize somebody because he happened to be born into a certain religion but when it comes to fostering Paranoia religion doe play a major role.

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Guest HappyAsHellas

Switzerland has twice the gun related deaths of Greece as it has double the number of guns. It doesn't always work out perfectly like this though, and places like Jamaica and South Africa are way worse than America, although it is obviously due to different circumstances. Economics, corruption, drugs, religious fanaticism and other causes can be seen to have an effect. Religion will always flourish where there is poverty and/or ignorance. Living in Scotland, we are used to the banner headlines of another American massacre, yet looking around for a couple of minutes before posting this I discovereed that compared to some, America is a veritable safe haven. Information taken from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

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I was speaking to a friend who lives in Switzerland recently as this piece of information about the Swiss having more guns at home is going around the internet a lot lately. The truth is that they do have guns at home but they're not allowed to have ammunition at home. All ammunition is stored in secure places in shooting ranges etc. No indivdual is allowed to have it at home or a carry it around.

 

If our gun crazy American friends like this model then I'd be all for it. Make it illegal to hold any ammunition at home or anywhere else outside a shooting range. Simple.

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why do you feel the need to distinguish between gun related and other homicides? The overall homicide rate has nothing to do with gun prevalence but you seem to imply that Gun related homicides are more of an issue than other homicides. Look at Greece for example. Homicide rate is 1.7 per 100.000 per year and gun related intentional homicides are 0.59 or about one third of the total rate. This means that 2 out of 3 people murdered in Greece are stabed, bludgened, poisoned, strangled or burned to death. So what is the conclusion? Outlaw knives, fists, hamers and rocks? Is that it? And since we are at it lets also outlaw cars because the trafic related death rate in Greece stands at 9.1 and is over 15 times more likely than gun related homicide.

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Guest HappyAsHellas

As the OP was about a mass shooting I thought it might be useful to look purely at the gun side of things. Most murders are committed by people known to the victim as well, so how would you stop that? Even countries with the most harsh punishment systems like Saudi for example, can boast some of the lowest crime figures but still cannot stop murders happening. What are the gun laws in Canada for example? Their murder rate is 1.4 per 100,000 whilst in America it's 3.8 and in Honduras a staggering 90.4. In short, we will never see an end to murders but if we can make carrying out the act harder then surely it's worth a try.

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why do you feel the need to distinguish between gun related and other homicides? The overall homicide rate has nothing to do with gun prevalence but you seem to imply that Gun related homicides are more of an issue than other homicides. Look at Greece for example. Homicide rate is 1.7 per 100.000 per year and gun related intentional homicides are 0.59 or about one third of the total rate. This means that 2 out of 3 people murdered in Greece are stabed, bludgened, poisoned, strangled or burned to death. So what is the conclusion? Outlaw knives, fists, hamers and rocks? Is that it? And since we are at it lets also outlaw cars because the trafic related death rate in Greece stands at 9.1 and is over 15 times more likely than gun related homicide.

 

I don't understand where you're going with this.

 

Obviously in Greece where possession of handguns is illegal the few homicides that happen there (few as compared to the US) are mostly conducted using other means, such as knives or whatever else.

 

In the US around 70% of all homicides were conducted using a firearm (this is a staggering statistic...). This is because having a firearm is legal and anyone can purchase one legally (and with great ease...) at their local supermarket. 

 

Would removing the guns of the equation in the US drop the homicide rate by 70%? Possibly not, but it will most likely drop it significantly. It's much easier to kill someone using a firearm than using your fists.

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admin:

 

Obviously in Greece where possession of handguns is illegal the few homicides that happen there (few as compared to the US) are mostly conducted using other means, such as knives or whatever else.

Greece ranks #6 in gun ownership. There are more guns per capita in Greece than lets say in Mexico, Russia, Brazil or Colombia. And yet homicide rates are many times higher in all those places. I think this demonstrates that gun ownership has nothing to do with homicide rates.

 

800px-GunsPer100_10052015.png

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basic line is "guns don't kill people"

 

this isn't about guns or crime, its bigger than that...why are we in the west so naive?

This is about the identity of violent crime. For 2013 the FBI lists homicide perpetrators as follows:

 

White : 2755

African American: 2698

Other : 168

 

Arabs, Pakistanies, Indians, Asians and so forth fall under the "Other" category. Apparently the US does not have an Arab or Muslim crime problem.

 

 

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls

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I guess the next step in your research would be to find out how many of those Arab, Indian, Asian families own firearms as compared to whites and african americans (I'm guessing here that hispanics are grouped with whites...)

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I guess the next step in your research would be to find out how many of those Arab, Indian, Asian families own firearms as compared to whites and african americans (I'm guessing here that hispanics are grouped with whites...)

Yes every Arab and Pakistani corner store owner keeps a loaded gun under the counter and Asians are the bigest gun nuts you can imagine. I live in a predominantly white suburb btw and everyone here has not just a gun but a whole collection. And yes it is the safest place you can imagine. Guns are not the cause of violence but a remedy. The state of Texas recognizes that:

 

 

On Aug. 1, 2016, a so-called state "campus carry" law goes into effect allowing people 21 and older with a concealed handgun license to carry handguns in classrooms and buildings throughout the University of Texas system, one of the nation's largest with an enrollment of more than 214,000 students.

Read more at Reutershttp://www.reuters.com/article/us-texas-university-guns-idUSKBN0TT2B720151210#x7EoD5CzkAjT7iqf.99

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In the US around 70% of all homicides were conducted using a firearm (this is a staggering statistic...). This is because having a firearm is legal and anyone can purchase one legally (and with great ease...) at their local supermarket. 

 

Would removing the guns of the equation in the US drop the homicide rate by 70%? Possibly not, but it will most likely drop it significantly. It's much easier to kill someone using a firearm than using your fists.

Really??? Buy guns in the supermarket??? Where's that so that I can go get some? I hope you're not from the US to spew such inaccuracies. 

 

Those with ill intent will find a way to commit it, no matter what laws and obstacles we put in their way. Most criminals use illegal weapons to commit their crimes.

 

Also, has anyone yet studied the connection between psychological conditions treated by psychotropic drugs and propensity to suicide and/or homicide?  It has been suggested that people on psychotropic medications are prone to kill themselves and if they have no regard for their own life why would they hesitate taking someone else's. Pharmaceutical companies are aware of the connection and, so far, have been successful in squashing any study on the subject as this will make them liable for those crimes.

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Yes, you can buy them at a supermarket, see Walmart for example: http://www.walmart.com/browse/sports-outdoors/firearms/4125_546956_1107532_1225336/?_refineresult=true&povid=cat1107532-env538992-moduleB082813-lLinkFC1Firearms. Go grab a few, along with plenty of ammunition to kill hundreds....legally.

 

You're also wrong about the use of illegal weapons. Most murders in the US are committed with guns purchased legally.

 

If you're committing a crime holding a gun it's thousands of times more likely to shoot and kill someone who comes to stop you, as opposed to committing this same crime without a gun. No need to look at the stats about this, think about this logically.

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Yes, you can buy them at a supermarket, see Walmart for example: http://www.walmart.com/browse/sports-outdoors/firearms/4125_546956_1107532_1225336/?_refineresult=true&povid=cat1107532-env538992-moduleB082813-lLinkFC1Firearms. Go grab a few, along with plenty of ammunition to kill hundreds....legally.

 

You're also wrong about the use of illegal weapons. Most murders in the US are committed with guns purchased legally.

 

If you're committing a crime holding a gun it's thousands of times more likely to shoot and kill someone who comes to stop you, as opposed to committing this same crime without a gun. No need to look at the stats about this, think about this logically.

Wait a sec.

Go grab a few, along with plenty of ammunition to kill hundreds?

So are you saying that everybody who owns a gun in the US has purchased it with the intention to kill hunreds?

You are criminalizing 88% of all americans while at the same time you point out that not every muslim is a terrorist.

 

What about the right for self defense? Don't you recognize it as a fundamental legal and even natural right?

Well, we live in the 21st century and if you deny people the right to bear arms you deny them the right to defend themselves.

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Really??? Buy guns in the supermarket??? Where's that so that I can go get some? I hope you're not from the US to spew such inaccuracies. 

 

Those with ill intent will find a way to commit it, no matter what laws and obstacles we put in their way. Most criminals use illegal weapons to commit their crimes.

 

Also, has anyone yet studied the connection between psychological conditions treated by psychotropic drugs and propensity to suicide and/or homicide?  It has been suggested that people on psychotropic medications are prone to kill themselves and if they have no regard for their own life why would they hesitate taking someone else's. Pharmaceutical companies are aware of the connection and, so far, have been successful in squashing any study on the subject as this will make them liable for those crimes.

i agree pharmaceutical companies have a lot to answer for....and lets not forget the street drugs 

 

and the promise of 40 - 70 virgins waiting to meet you at heavens door lol

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Wait a sec.

Go grab a few, along with plenty of ammunition to kill hundreds?

So are you saying that everybody who owns a gun in the US has purchased it with the intention to kill hunreds?

You are criminalizing 88% of all americans while at the same time you point out that not every muslim is a terrorist.

 

What about the right for self defense? Don't you recognize it as a fundamental legal and even natural right?

Well, we live in the 21st century and if you deny people the right to bear arms you deny them the right to defend themselves.

 

I didn't say that. I said though that for those who do have the intent to kill it's easy to get their hands on lethal weapons anytime the want, legally.

 

Even though the truth is that many (not sure if it's most...) of those killed by firearms in the US are accidental killings, so I guess Darwin's law of natural selection is in process here cleaning up the gene pool.

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Yes, you can buy them at a supermarket, see Walmart for example: http://www.walmart.com/browse/sports-outdoors/firearms/4125_546956_1107532_1225336/?_refineresult=true&povid=cat1107532-env538992-moduleB082813-lLinkFC1Firearms. Go grab a few, along with plenty of ammunition to kill hundreds....legally.

 

You're also wrong about the use of illegal weapons. Most murders in the US are committed with guns purchased legally.

 

If you're committing a crime holding a gun it's thousands of times more likely to shoot and kill someone who comes to stop you, as opposed to committing this same crime without a gun. No need to look at the stats about this, think about this logically.

Touche! Some Wallmarts have grocery departments in them, thereby, "You can (technically) buy guns at the supermarket" but you can't get the in the grocery aisle. 

 

Being that I consider Wallmart an EVIL company I never shop there, I was not aware of that option. Regardless, stores that sell weapons, have to, by law, check the prospective buyer's background. You can't just walk in a pick up a few guns or ammo without those checks. Those with ill intent will always, no matter where, find the means to arm themselves. The San Bernardino shooters got them from a neighbor. The French shooters some illegal avenue, bypassing prohibitions of the French authorities, because that was their will.

 

Making possession of firearms hard to accomplice, will only stop those who obey the law and those people no one needs to fear. The question is how do you stop those who don't care about the law? You cannot, so stopping law abiding citizens from possessing guns will have ZERO effect on what you want to accomplice.

 

Remember the old saying: "If you criminalize possession of guns, only criminals will possess guns". Let's talk about self defense then...

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Only criminals (and law enforcement...) posses guns anywhere else in the world. Look at the statistics on deaths caused by firearms as compared to the US.

Maybe for a change the US should look into this option too since allowing everyone to buy a firearm and ammunition legally doesn't seem to be working well for them.

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