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solving the refugee crisis

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Guest FriendofGreece

As I mentioned previously, Greeks and diaspora should protest the migrant invasion in Greece.

 

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2016/03/26/locals-throw-pigs-heads-at-migrant-camp-gate-in-greece/

 

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2016/03/04/greek-village-residents-protest-against-refugee-camp-by-plowing-site-field/

 

The migrant crisis has been created by Turkey to further their neo-Ottoman ambitions. If the migrant flows can drop down to zero in two days, it confirms, as if we need that confirmation, and shows that Turkey is the force behind the smugglers. The EU made a short-term deal with Turkey, I think it is for 6 months only and swapping of 72,000 Syrians, whichever comes first. This is playing into the hands of Turkey, the culprit initiator of the crisis. After 6 months, what will happen?

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You and eyo sound like the type of guys who, when caught in a rain, face up and protest the rain and question the motives of the sky instead of just opening that umbrella. What good is protesting gonna do you if you have no control over the rain?

 

Do you get the analogy? The refugee crisis is something we as Greeks have no control over. But we came together as a collective and elected the guy who is in charge of our umbrella. The rain came and he dind't open that umbrella. Hell, he doesn't even know where he left it. Protesting the rain or engaging in pointless discussions about the finer points of global weather patterns won't solve our problems. Rainstorms just happen and that's why an organized collective has guys in charge of "Umbrellas" and it is the failure of those guys to open those damn umbrellas that gets us soaked.

 

There is a distinct difference between 3rd world countries like Greece and 1st world countries like Germany. Merkel failed missrably in the handling of the refugee situation so what did the Germans do? They did not protest the causes of the refugee stream. Thats outside the German voters reach. They went and kindled a fire under Angela Merkels fat ass and lo and behold the refugee arrivals in Germany were cut by 90%. The French and the Austrians did the same.

 

The Greeks on the other hand are out there shouting at the sky and protesting the rain while getting soaked. Typical 3rd worlder response. They have been conditioned to bitch about "outside causes" instead of focusing on the real issue which is the failure of our government of the refugee crisis and not the crisis itself. The latter is something that lies outside of our reach and no amount of protest against the refugee influx on our part will convince the Turks or Saudis or Americans or Russians to abandon their little monopoly game. But we elected a government and this government has one job and ONE job only: To protect the interest of the people it represents.

 

We'll have to light a fire under the Greek governments ass and not allow them to distract from their failures with humanitarian platitudes and pointless discourses on geo politics. The job of the government we Greeks elected is not to solve Syria's problems or eradicate the causes of global refugee streams. The job of our government is to lessen the impact of those events on our society and to minimize the risks those things pose for our commonwealth. And so far our Government is a complete failure. This should be the focus of our attention and not events we have no controll over.

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Guest eyoismos

to a certain point ajax is correct, but only to a certain point
 
fire-fighting is all well and good, and obviously has to be tackled, but one must never avoid to challenge, isolate and bring the pyromaniacs to book
 
thats the first question
2nd question, .... how does one fight the fire, when very limited resources are available, ynlike lets say germany, who has one of the best resources for this problem, ..... other countries to shield her borders, on top of a whole lot more
 
or to take an analogy, since ajax like them, the "Maginot Line" are the other countries for Germany, and just like that one, the refugees bypassed them with the same ease, and that is but the beginning of how almost a million refugees ended up in europe
 
at best, all greece, due to her sea borders, could do, is put up some barriers like ... i dont know ... and only if she can afford it

9123e0ce.jpg

 
and pretty much fuck-all else, because basically, for all intents and purposes,  she is broke.

 

but the invasion continued and will continue .... all because europe doesnt bring, and perhapsrefuses to bring (at least up to recently), real serious enforcements, because greece, no way in hell, due to her current economic and other situation would be able to cope, to "protect europe's ass" or so europe demands
 
but then again .... why should they. after all ...
 

Fuck your parliament and your constitution. America is an elephant. Cyprus is a flea. Greece is a flea. If these two fleas continue itching the elephant, they may just get whacked good.
Lyndon Johnson,

 

(feel free to replace "america" with germany or perhaps even europe)

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Guest eyoismos

but in the mean time lets have a go at the causes of the refugee crisis

 

for starters

 

 

Based on various reports, CNBC came up with the following laundry list of supplies the U.S. has so kindly provided to ISIS so far.

  • 2,300 Humvee armored vehicles at $70,000 each: $16 million
  • 40 M1A1 Abram tanks at $4.3 million each: $172 million
  • 52 M198 Howitzer mobile gun systems at $527,337 each: $2.7 million
  • 74,000 Army machine guns at $4,000 each: $29 million

and that is just the States. germany for example has "contributed" via the same "war for profit" mentality

 

all of course supplied from the self-delusion of "safe distance"

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Guest FriendofGreece

I said that "Governments come and go". By that, I meant if the Greeks are not happy with the Tsipras government, then get rid of it, and put another one in place. As for protesting against the migrants, if you don't protest, how would the government know you don't want them? Isn't that what the Germans did to put pressure on Merkel?

 

If you don't recognize and tackle the rain or the pyromaniacs, i.e. the source of the crisis, how can you stop it? No matter how many umbrellas or firefighters there are, the source is still there. I have said many times, and have stopped repeating because Greece has been left on its own, that the EU did not provide assistance to Greece to help protect the EU external borders. Even now, I think none of the 2,500 experts that are promised under the EU-Turkey has arrived yet, or only a few have. Not sure neither that the funds that were promised for the hotspots have trickled in. Greece is expected to bear the brunt of the migrant invasion because Merkel has told the migrants that Germany accepts them, never mind if Tsipras allows them to pass through Greece. Even now, Germany still accepts them, that is why they still have hope to cross the border at Idomeni. Allowing the passage through Greece is of no use to them if they cannot go to Germany or other favorite EU country.

 

The migrant push by Turkey is man-made, not a natural event, that we cannot control. There is push and push-back, how you push back is up to the EU, as a whole with Greece, to come up with a solution. The solution found was the closing of the borders with Greece and the EU-Turkey deal, which is only short-term and does not solve the problem. Turkey resolved the migrant flows in two days. Are the leaders of the EU (including Greece) so without any idea on how to resolve something as easy as that, and I mean for the long-term?

 

But all that talk about EU help is useless. Greece is on its own and must face the problem by itself now. Tsipras should first of all announce that Greece does not accept any more migrants, and he will only do it if the Greek people protest and act against the migrants in Greece, to show that the are not welcome in Greece, just like Merkel retracted on her open borders. Of course, the Greeks should protest against the government open borders policy too at the same time. National civil rights, and human rights start and end with the Greek people in Greece, not the migrants. 

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eyo:

 

to a certain point ajax is correct, but only to a certain point

 

fire-fighting is all well and good, and obviously has to be tackled, but one must never avoid to challenge, isolate and bring the pyromaniacs to book

 

thats the first question

2nd question, .... how does one fight the fire, when very limited resources are available, ynlike lets say germany, who has one of the best resources for this problem, ..... other countries to shield her borders, on top of a whole lot more

 

 

Bringing the pyromaniacs to book?

What book? The pyromaniacs are the ones who write the book. And whenever their interests shift they go ahead and rewrite it to suit them. How is the bringing them to book gonna play out in practical terms? Take some news papper clipings and that 2005 "Mission accomplished" pic from operation Iraqi freedom and send them to Trump, telling him that the whole mess is a result of American blunders so he has to help us out here? And next day he will get in front of his supporters and say look folks we got to take those refugees off Greece's hands? Yeah right.

 

Or are we gonna tell Holand that he has to take in the Syrians due to the active role France played in all those US led regime change operations in Northern Africa and the Middle-East and due to Frances historic responsibility as a former colonial power in the region? You think that will sway him and his frenchie voters? Not gonna happen. That's why I rather piss on the Frenchie's (thus my avatar).  

 

We are one country out of 28 in the EU with a population of 10 mil out of 510 so putting it to a vote wont solve our problems and pleas are pointless. And you are right we don't have lots of resources at our disposal either. Still, there are things we can do. For starters:

 

I hope you agree with me when I say the deal with Turkey was a very bad Idea. The turks and Europeans got together over our heads and worked out a deal and then called us up to sign up on it. And Tsipras did. This is a failure of the Greek government. He should have walked out of it. In this case NO solution would be better than a BAD solution. It would keep the urgency up and prevent Holand and Merkel from going around pretending they have solved the problem. So instead of going to Turkey distributing roses we should have pulled up a barbwire fence along the Turkish border and deploy the full strength of our Navy and Army to the Eastern Aegean isles instead of having just our coastgard  and customs agencies deal with the problem. This would send a signal, to the Turks and everybody else, that we are not treating the situation as a public order issue anymore but as an act of foreign agression. If we had done that you would see the EU chickens flock to Greece with proposals. But our Government failed to do so and Alexi signed with a smile on his face. 

 

There is the situation at Idomeni. Some 15000 ilegals camp out in the fields in defiance of the laws of the land and a country of 10.000.000 surrenders to them. This is unacceptable. The Camp should have been vacated from the very beginning. Yes with force. The purpose of police and security forces is to ENFORCE the law after all or is it not? The Greek Government did once again nothing and the pictures went around the world showing that Greece is a joke of a country where anarchy and chaos rule. This is not a good image to project while your only hope to get out of the economic crisis is private foreign invetment and revenue from tourism.

 

Yes, our resources are limitted but to do NOTHING because we can't do much is just a lame yet convinient excuse for innaction. Writing essays, at an elementary school level, on the "Humanitarian Principles of Europe" as Pavlopoulos and Gerovasili do, won't move the EU governments and their voters to tears and make them take ownership of the problem.

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Guest FriendofGreece

I have waited for long but finally, a Greek who proposes a solution. This discussion should have happened long ago. I had somehow similar thoughts like you, Ajaxmonkey. I had suggested before to deploy the Greek navy to guard the entrance to Greek waters, and if the migrants land somehow on the islands, to stop them from landing. As I mentioned before, there are only a few islands near Turkey where the migrants land, it is not all the islands. Furthermore, the migrants should be left on the islands and fenced in, instead of bringing them to Athens. 

 

Yes, this is an illegal invasion, and the Greeks must see it as it is, instead of refugees seeking asylum. You do with illegal invaders what you usually do to protect your country. 

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Guest FriendofGreece

How would you resolve the migrants stuck at Idomeni, Ajaxmonkey? Now that the NGO's have gone, there is a very high risk of diseases first of all spreading to the Greek population and other dangers.

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People are herd animals. There are allways a few daring ones and the rest follows behind them. Thats how crowd controll works and every half way decent policing apparatus follows the same playbook. Identify the ringleaders and isolate them from the herd. And if you want to be perfectly within the legal context you wait for them to give you an opening. In the case of Idomeni there were a few openings which the Greek security forces failed to utilize simply because they were not ordered to be present at the scene.

 

About 50 illigals together with some dozen SYRIZA-ANTARSIA members blocked the bridge on the Thessaloniki-Kilkis highway. This is clearly a criminal act  because the action was not aproved by local authorities. The police could have arrested the whole bunch of the participants in the blockade. The ANTARSIA members would be out on public bond within 24 hours but the Iligals could have been easily denied bond due to the fact that they do not have an address in Greece and can thus not be trusted to appear at trial. So they could be locked up for up to 18 months awaiting trial and all would be perfectly within Greek law. What is that gonna do? It tells hem that if you don't respect our laws we'll take away 18 months of your life. This will make others think twice before they refuse to follow procedures.

 

The several hundred who crossed into Macedonia and were then returned to Greece could have been arrested and locked up as well. Illegal border crossing is a crime in Greece regardless of the direction. The Greek authorities decided to let them go free just as they did in the case of the blockade on the highway. This sends out the signal that in Greece you can do whatever you want and there wont be any consequences. Arresting them on the other hand would have put them on notice that defiance comes at a cost.

 

There were hundreds of smaller cases of criminal trespassing into private properties around Idomeni. The Greek police ignored them all. If they had done their job the camp would have dissolved already. Take the ones who defy orders out of the herd and the resignation of the rest will make them follow orders and go to the official facilities and await their lot there. There are ways to deal with the situation short of bringing in riot police in full strength and gear. Which is still a viable and perfectly legitimate last resort.

 

Or at least there would be if Greece were a serious country with a serious government. Unfortunately we are not. The Government orders the Police to look the other way. Some of our politicians are even among the organizers of blockades like the ones at the bridge and our judicial branch of government is a hotbed of pseudo revolutionary activism. Our first order of business must be the reform of our Government otherwise the situation will get worse.

 

So for the time being the only thing we as Greeks can do is take the heat to our Government. Protesting at Idomeni wont do any good. Marching a few 10.000 people in front of the Ministry of the Interior and demanding the guy in charge steps up to the plate or steps down is the only thing that will put them on notice. 

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Guest FriendofGreece

I read often that the police is told not to use force. The only thing they could do is use their shields to push back. Yes, protesting like you said, not 10,000, but hundreds of thousands. Also asking that the police be allowed to use force and deal with the migrants as they see fit to bring back order, and asking for the deployment of the Navy and Army to the islands to prevent further invasion and protect the Greek population. 

 

How do you identify the ringleaders if you don't know their language? Won't the other migrants protect them, how do you isolate them?

 

I agree arresting and locking whenever we can to show that the law must be respected. For that, I think the Army should be sent to reinforce the police force. 

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FoG:

 

How do you identify the ringleaders if you don't know their language? Won't the other migrants protect them, how do you isolate them?

Thats easy. Everybody who acts is either a ringleader or is following a ringleader. For example, the guys who participated in the blockade are ringleaders and people who followed them. By arresting them you detain some of the ringleaders and you lessen their hold on the followers by letting the latter know that following the lead of the former will get you into a mess. 

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Guest FriendofGreece

Logical. Some are really vocal and you can see them inciting others. In Idomeni, it might be easier also because more than 1/2 are women and children. 

 

There should also be a grip on those activists who complicate the situation.

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Guest eyoismos

technical point of order ... the quote you gave above is not by me, but buy FoG

 

 

About 50 illigals together with some dozen SYRIZA-ANTARSIA members blocked the bridge on the Thessaloniki-Kilkis highway. This is clearly a criminal act  because the action was not aproved by local authorities. The police could have arrested the whole bunch of the participants in the blockade. The ANTARSIA members would be out on public bond within 24 hours but the Iligals could have been easily denied bond due to the fact that they do not have an address in Greece and can thus not be trusted to appear at trial. So they could be locked up for up to 18 months awaiting trial and all would be perfectly within Greek law. What is that gonna do? It tells hem that if you don't respect our laws we'll take away 18 months of your life. This will make others think twice before they refuse to follow procedures.

excellent point, and true
 
but here is the thing ...since when has greek law been straight forward, upheld, maintained and enforced? the problem is not syriza alone It goes way way back  to multiple governments. or ... to say it differently ... when the murderer of that guy Phissas, a full on lefty, has been released but under house arrest, under lefty government no less, (who of course did so, at least under their watch,  to uphold the law as it stands (a law which is a joke onto itself) .... how on earth does one expect more serious transgression of the law be upheld,

 

point is .... incompetence has deep roots, independent of political affiliation

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Guest FriendofGreece

They are aliens on Greek land, just throw them in jail because they are illegally trespassing Greece. The only thing is are there enough jails to hold them? 

 

And if the current Greek laws are too difficult to comprehend and to apply, make new simple ones to deal with the migrants and pass them immediately. 

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Guest eyoismos

 

Bringing the pyromaniacs to book? etc

 

so what are you suggesting? i mean in some sense you are very correct, but by the same token you are also suggesting one carries on fighting the fires, while ignoring the pyromenians to continue doing their thing without kept in check

 

thats like whipping and thrashing the bed ridden victims of the ebola virus, and to hell with fighting its epidemic spreading

where is the logic in that?

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Guest eyoismos

They are aliens on Greek land, just throw them in jail because they are illegally trespassing Greece. The only thing is are there enough jails to hold them? 

 

And if the current Greek laws are too difficult to comprehend and to apply, make new simple ones to deal with the migrants and pass them immediately. 

 

aaand ...who is going to pay for them and their upkeep? i say by hook and by crook send them back to where they came from .... and those who sent them .... Turkey.... oh wait ... they cant do that no ... europe is too busy sucking on turkey dick ...and paying them for that privilege ... sorry ... my bad

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Guest FriendofGreece

Give them one piece of bread and water in jail. The jail cells that are empty are there already, there are no further costs. 

 

I mentioned previously to deport them by sending them back in dinghies the way they came. If the Greeks have the guts to do it, so be it.

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technical point of order ... the quote you gave above is not by me, but buy FoG

 

 

excellent point, and true

 

but here is the thing ...since when has greek law been straight forward, upheld, maintained and enforced? the problem is not syriza alone It goes way way back  to multiple governments. or ... to say it differently ... when the murderer of that guy Phissas, a full on lefty, has been released but under house arrest, under lefty government no less, how on earth does one expect more serious transgression of the law be up held,

 

point is .... incompetence has deep roots, independent of political affiliation

 As i said, IF Greece were a serious country....

But, and I fully agree with you on that one, Greece is not a serious country.

 

So how do we change that?

In my opinion the only choice we have is to let our clowns in charge feel the heat and not fall for their distractions.

 

Yes Alexi, Kosta, Andrea, Giorgo, Kyriako, Antoni, we know that you are not responsible for the war in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan or Yemen.

And we don't ask you to resolve the conflicts in those countries. This is not part of your job description and it is not why we voted you into ofice for.

Your job is to uphold the laws of our Republic and to ensure the safety and order of the citizens of the country you were elected to lead.

What are you doing about that?

 

Yes Alexi, we know that you had no big part in drafting that agreement between the EU and Turkey and we don't blame you for its contents. We blame you for signing up on it without even bothering to explain to us what exactly it is you signed up on in our name. This borders treason.

 

Let them fuckers know that they are gonna be pelted from all sites. Start with the tomatoes escalate to eggs and then bring out the rocks. Let them know that we had it with their shit and if they don't start taking their job seriously they'll end up asking for asylum in the capitols of their masters. 

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Guest eyoismos

 

I hope you agree with me when I say the deal with Turkey was a very bad Idea.

you are preaching to the choir

 

i have been making an issue about  turkey and turkish bazaar politics like forever

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Guest eyoismos

Give them one piece of bread and water in jail. The jail cells that are empty are there already, there are no further costs. 

 

I mentioned previously to deport them by sending them back in dinghies the way they came. If the Greeks have the guts to do it, so be it.

 

thats an awefull lot of bread daily, and bread cost money .... bread that should rather be spent on the porr and the suffering of greece itself

 

but here is an idea.... send them all to finland ... where prisoners live like kings :P

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Guest FriendofGreece

Eyoismos, we have not heard yet your suggestions on how to deal with all this issue, what do you propose, let us discuss seriously.

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so what are you suggesting? i mean in some sense you are very correct, but by the same token you are also suggesting one carries on fighting the fires, while ignoring the pyromenians to continue doing their thing without kept in check

 

thats like whipping and thrashing the bed ridden victims of the ebola virus, and to hell with fighting its epidemic spreading

where is the logic in that?

How do you deal with earthquakes?

 

Yes I know, an earthquake is a natural act while neo colonial wars are caused by men. Nevertheless our chances of getting the big powers to act civil are just as slim as our chances to prevent earthquakes. Non existend actually. So what remains do be done besides dealing with the consequences and minimizing their impact on our society?

 

I hope you agree that doing nothing to lessen the consequnces because the root causes are out of our control is not an option. Not in the case of earthquakes and not in the case of live fire geo political monopoly. So lets not use the "Bigger Picture" as an excuse for inaction on the small stage that is our own.

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Guest FriendofGreece

We were talking about putting the leaders and the small group of followers, not all the migrants. Give only water then, I don't care. They usually threaten to go on hunger strike if you don't give what they want. Maybe cut the water too.

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Guest eyoismos

How do you deal with earthquakes?

 

Yes I know, an earthquake is a natural act while neo colonial wars are caused by men. Nevertheless our chances of getting the big powers to act civil are just as slim as our chances to prevent earthquakes. Non existend actually. So what remains do be done besides dealing with the consequences and minimizing their impact on our society?

 

I hope you agree that doing nothing to lessen the consequnces because the root causes are out of our control is not an option. Not in the case of earthquakes and not in the case of live fire geo political monopoly. So lets not use the "Bigger Picture" as an excuse for inaction on the small stage that is our own.

 

let me put it this  way ... for centuries the big powers have been using the tiny ones and playing them like pawns on their global chessboard ...usually by playing one against the other. what "we" and by we i mean a collective force by all those involved, need to do, is to turn the tables around...somehow ... is to find a way to turn the tables around  ..and get them to "fight betwen themselves" ...for example ... when mitsotakis, if i am not mistaken, stated making moves about buying weapons from russia, this got the west kinda pissed off ... problem is ... he didnt have the balls to carry through, and make good ... and ...well.... we evenually carried on buying from the germans etc

 

bottom line we need leaders with balls ...but with brains too .... and we need them NOW ... the general populace where fooled by yet another politician aka tsipra, in thinking that we did , ...and who ended being pretty much a windbag, like almost all radical lefties and righties

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Guest eyoismos

Eyoismos, we have not heard yet your suggestions on how to deal with all this issue, what do you propose, let us discuss seriously.

let me answer you thus

 

when i was once upon a time, when i was working corporate, the big hancho ceo came to address the plebs in the branch i was in. i was one of many that pointed out all the problems we as plebs where facing, as well as what we perceived the company was facing.... like climb into the current decade with some balls and products and services, actually i made a it of a noise about that, which didnt leave me in good standing with my immediate superior bosses .... to cut a long story short, that ceo turned around to me, obviously annoyed, and asked what he should do. i, also annoyed with the bull that was handed to me, retorted by saying, "if i knew the answers, i would be in your position as the big man, and you would be working for me. my job is it do fault finding in my game, and that is exactly what i am doing right now ... outside my game"

 

its a wonder how i was not fired there and then

 

interestingly enough .... the company went bankrupt a year or two later... cant remember that far back for accuracy

its also the time i swore never to work for corporates again, an never did

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Guest

 


eyo:

 

bottom line we need leaders with balls ...but with brains too .... and we need them NOW ... the general populace where fooled by yet another politician aka tsipra, in thinking that we did , ...and who ended being pretty much a windbag, like almost all radical lefties and righties

 

Agreed!

But where the fuck are we gonna find those. The political landscape in Greece doesn't appear teeming with capable people. It is rather depressing really. 

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Guest eyoismos

we dont, but what we do have is pressure groups that are being completely ignored ....by law

i am of course referring to the diaspora, who have their hands completely tied and mouths silenced with duct tape. and that is but one solution, even though a partial one

 

the challenge of course is to get the diaspora to get out of this stupid party-political line that soooo many find themselves entrapped in, and start thinking not only representation, but far more importantly, become a serious player by becoming the valve, and realistically ONLY the valve in the whole machine,  that can potentially control the flow of political outcomes and decisions

 

so the question is .....can we?

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