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Philoxenia

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Modern Greeks use a lot of things from their past, and this past includes remnants of things passed on to us from the ancient Greeks (several celebrations and feasts are directly influenced by the ancient Greeks, and so is our language and several expressions from the ancient times which we still use), from the Byzantine times (all the Christians traditions), and also from more recent times when the Greeks were influenced by the Ottomans.

 

It's funny in a way, that while the Greeks changed the way they name their days of the week sometime around the Byzantine times (Deftera, Triti etc. and we still use these names today), most Europeans based their naming of the days in the original ancient Greek naming of the days of the week.

 

So their Sunday is the original Greek "ημέρα του ήλιου" (day of the son), Monday is the "ημέρα της σελήνης" (day of the moon) and so on...

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Everytime I stay in Thessaloniki, I get up before dawn and hike 3 miles up to the summit of Cara Tepe through the beautyful forest of Seich Sou. It is a great place to greet the rising Sun. Then I return home and have my Turkish Coffee on the balcony while gazing at the Genti Koule. I'm not the one to deny Ottoman influences.

 

btw here is a panorama. Seich Sou forest is in the left upper part. Cara Tepe is the talest among the hills. The one with the antenas on top. Genti Koule is top center.

panorama-sykies.jpg

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Guest FriendofGreece

Admin - that is interesting. I wonder whether there are similarities in the Greek food that we eat now with the food the ancient Greeks used to eat, the ways the food is cooked, preserved, etc. Also, how is the modern Greek language different from the ancient Greek language? Is the grammar easier, for example, or the way the words are expressed? By that, for example, if you look at the way Shakespeare wrote and how English is now. 

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Admin - I don't know where to ask you this, but I have problems signing in. When I click on "Sign in" at the top right, the blue panel on top drops down, hides the words "Sign in" half way. No matter how many times I click on "Sign in", nothing happens. It takes quite many clicks for me to be able to sign in. What could be the problem? Thank you for checking into this.

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Admin - that is interesting. I wonder whether there are similarities in the Greek food that we eat now with the food the ancient Greeks used to eat, the ways the food is cooked, preserved, etc. Also, how is the modern Greek language different from the ancient Greek language? Is the grammar easier, for example, or the way the words are expressed? By that, for example, if you look at the way Shakespeare wrote and how English is now. 

 

There are a few similarities in the Greek food we eat now with the food of the ancient Greeks that I know of, I'm no expert though :)

 

For starters, Greeks back then, very much as Greeks today, consumed mainly what their land produced. So mainly grains (Greeks love bread!), several different types of fruits like figs, grapes etc., olive oil of course, fish, honey etc.

 

Talking about things that survived from ancient Greece (and ancient times in general) to this day, and are related to food/eating, I'd add animal sacrifice. Greeks to this day "sacrifice" a lamp every easter. And even though most people would think that this is a "Christian" tradition it's really an ancient tradition, stemming from the animal sacrifices to the ancient gods.

 

As far as the language goes, this is a long discussion, and I'll probably upset eyoismos :D  if I say that phonetically Classical Greek would probably sound alien to modern Greek speakers. This is because even though the alphabet is more or less the same since ancient times some letters - and as an extension many words - were pronounced differently. I'm not a linguist myself to be able to provide a complete account of all differences, but a typical example is the letter B (beta) which in ancient times - according to the linguists - was pronounced as an English "b" (as in bee), while in modern Greek we pronounce it as a "v".

 

So, in short, eve though modern Greek speakers can probably understand and pronounce correctly several ancient Greek words, they'd probably have a hard time fully understanding someone speaking ancient Greek the way it was spoken at the time. I'd also note that probably nobody today can reproduce exactly the classical Greek pronunciation. And that's not only because as native speakers of modern languages (modern Greek included) we carry over our native phonology, but also because classical Greek used pitch to differentiate vowels in words, while most (if not all) modern languages (modern Greek included) use stress instead.

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Guest eyoismos

you just dont get it, do you?
 
let me simplify it because you obviously are not capable  to see the big picture, but only what you selectively want to see, and only in an greek-hating way at that
 
i will only mention the ridiculousness of the notion,  as you put it ""Ethnic Cleansing" was invented by the Novo Graecian state"

and

The brutal execution of Gregory V, especially on the day of Easter Sunday, shocked and infuriated the Greeks, and Orthodox Russia. It caused also protests in the rest of Europe and reinforced the movement of Philhellenism. There are references that during the Greek War of Independence, many revolutionaries engraved on their swords the name of Gregory seeking revenge.

as i said ... it was revenge , a revenge of the worst kind, a revenge fueled by not only the events prior to that, but by 400 years of atrocities that had to be endured
 
furthermore kolokotronis cannot be said particularly that he was pushing for those atrocities per say - remember he was leading a hodgepodge of pretty much undisciplined guerilla fighters with their own leaders, and it is amazing that he managed to control them the way he did . having said that, he is certainly not exactly innocent either
 
having said that ... also i repeat

[before the fall] we had formed a plan of proposing to the Turks that they should deliver Tripolitsa into our hands, and that we should, in that case, send persons into it to gather the spoils together, which were then to be apportioned and divided among the different districts for the benefit of the nation; but who would listen?"

instead of asking the pertinent questions like ..., i dont know ...who wouldnt listen? the turks? or his "lieutenants"?  or maybe why did the greeks think the pleas of the turks would be a ruse? experience after dealing with the ways of the turks perhaps? or a "fuck them all" mentality driven by blood lust
 
like i said ...there is a huge spectrum of truths involved but the central truth for the greeks was freedom (freedom from what or to what purposes is another story, for the turks it was "no fucking way"
 
and in between ...you name it , it was done ...by both parties concerned
 
 
as for his spoils of war ... what exactly is you are snubbing your nose at with such detain and you are objecting to? how exactly would that differ from lets say the fall of Constantinople, or maybe the fall of troy? or a certain country that went down because of alleged weapons of mass destruction and a whole lot of stuff magically happened to appear in the markets around the world and in private collections 
 
as for the for bringing the idea of counting days in a "orthodox christian way" ..... as opposed to the western church variant , of allowing the days be called after the moon and the stars and the gods....... where exactly is your problem again?
 
oh i know, or i assume as such, judging from the past, your problem is that polytheism was replaced by monotheism that didnt start from ancient greece ... or is it more likely because it was that particular religion.
 
this of course id absurd .... considering ...well .. i dont know ... there where agnostics, atheists and montheists within ancient greece with strong followings, not to mention that their is strong evidence the beautiful Aphrodite  came from the Phoenicians via the froth of the seas of cyprus, or that Ares, if i am not mistaken, came from or is associated with the thracians
 
so much for greeks stealing a religion from others
 
by the way ... ever thought of why the concept of icons came about ... and i am talking about really came about? or even why it is so prevelant in the orthodox church to pray to the saints, ... and offerings where given ... and vows where made?
 
oh i know ! i know! i know! (with the enthusiasm of a child in school) ....adaptation of the practices of polytheism and "talking personally to the god of choice"
 
but noooooo your hangup is that the greeks via the byzantine, adopted a "foreign to them religion" ... and even worse for you, specifically an Abrahamic religion --- oh horror of horrors
 
bet the best part of what you chirp ...and this is a real beaut ...
 


So would you care to explain why mine stating that you count your days up to the Sabath makes me a cantankerous putz?

 
where the fuck did that come from?

if that alone ... forget everything else ... doesnt make you a cantankerous putz, i dont know what does

 

and to answer you query about what it means

 

 

cantankerous [kan-tang-ker-uh s] adj. = disagreeable to deal with; contentious; peevish; bad-tempered, argumentative, and uncooperative

 

putz [puhts] noun, Slang. = fool; jerk.

fits you to the T

 

and for a change you are right... it doesnt mean accurate observer

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Guest FriendofGreece

Admin - I just saw your reply. How interesting! It is said that the Mediterranean diet is the best and olive oil is the best oil. I don't know if it is the best (I don't like olive oil on its own) but Greek food is good, miam miam miam.  :D

 

Ancient Greece was composed of many city-states. I know they, of course, all spoke ancient Greek, but do you know if there were different ways of pronouncing ancient Greek depending on the city-state, kind of like different dialects?

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Oh eyo!

 

If stating facts makes me acantankerous putz so be it. But the facts remain: Kolokotronis was a murderus vilain. And he was an Albanian by the way. One other fact of the Siege of Tripolitsa is that while he didn't do anything to save Turkish or Jewish women and children he did allow Albanian auxilaries who assisted in the defence of Tripolitsa to widthdraw from the scene. He couldn't let his own people die now could he? And Kolokotronis did keep the loot to himself which led to a dispute between him Ypsilantis and Mavrokordatos. The man was after all a Kleft so what do you expect!

 

But all that aside, why your insistence on this fake Greekness? You eat Otoman food, listen to middle eastern music, practize a middle eastern religion, look middle eastern. What exactly is it that you have in common with the Greeks?

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Ancient Greece was composed of many city-states. I know they, of course, all spoke ancient Greek, but do you know if there were different ways of pronouncing ancient Greek depending on the city-state, kind of like different dialects?

 

 

Yes, of course there were several different ancient Greek dialects: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_dialects

 

What is interesting about this is that Greeks who lived outside mainland Greece spoke dialects which were closer to the ancient Greek dialects spoken in their areas for ceturies. As an example, my paternal grandfather and that whole side of my family moved to mainland Greece in 1920 from a place called Aivali (or Kydonies in Greek) on the coast of Asia Minor opposite the island of Lesvos. Greeks in that part of the world spoke the Aeolic dialect for centuries. Even though in mainland Greece the language evolved to the koine Greek during Alexander's time, which eventually evolved into what we today call modern Greek, in some areas in Asia Minor Greek continued speaking a dialect which used many terms from the ancient Aeolic and Ionic dialects.

 

I was always fascinated listening to my paternal grandfather talk with his brothers and sisters in their dialect. I always thought that it was some dialect from the island of Lesvos (that's where they were raised after their family moved from Asia Minor to Greece) but much later, and after I met with some scholars and linguists who were doing research around the Greek dialects of Asia Minor, I found out through them that what my grandfather was speaking was an ancient Greek dialect which was heavily influenced by the Aeolic dialect.

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some people are so delusional about their facts they actually believe their own crap to a point of ....

what is the point to continue ...so much hate for greeks makes one blind --- like i said ... cantankerous putz

 

by the way interesting that now kolokotronis is albanian ..... and of course ... as usual no proof  ..except perhaps from an albanian or skop source ...or maybe from an, in desperation, wannabe turk

 

image18111%5B5051%5D.jpg

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As far as the language goes, this is a long discussion, and I'll probably upset eyoismos :D  if I say that phonetically Classical Greek would probably sound alien to modern Greek speakers. This is because even though the alphabet is more or less the same since ancient times some letters - and as an extension many words - were pronounced differently. I'm not a linguist myself to be able to provide a complete account of all differences, but a typical example is the letter B (beta) which in ancient times - according to the linguists - was pronounced as an English "b" (as in bee), while in modern Greek we pronounce it as a "v".

 

fuck erasmus and his alleged correct pronunciation = what next ? that the greek originated words in English should be said and pronounced the english way and Greeks, the possessors of the language, have no say on Greek phonology! those very same linguists of the same mentality WOULD read greek like latin ... in absolute terms ... you know ... like pizza not pitsa and latin c = s and all the rest  ... so ciao (pronounced chiao) to that school of thought :-P

 

on the other hand only a fool would insist that the pronunciation of the ancients would be identical with the modern, so technically admin is correct, even though his justification leaves much wanting :)

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some people are so delusional about their facts they actually believe their own crap to a point of ....

what is the point to continue ...so much hate for greeks makes one blind --- like i said ... cantankerous putz

 

by the way interesting that now kolokotronis is albanian ..... and of course ... as usual no proof  ..except perhaps from an albanian or skop source ...or maybe from an, in desperation, wannabe turk

 

image18111[5051.jpg]

Fake Geneologies pulled out of Greek Archives that did not even exist prior to the 1900's don't prove Greekness.

But the mention of the name Tsergini, which is the novo Graecian rendering of the Albanian Serjani, does suggest Albanian roots.

 

But I see the most serious issue is the fact that you justify the attrocities commited by Kolokotronis and his men as acts of "righteous indignation"!

 

They were fighting for their land you say as if they had more of a claim to the land than the ones who stood loyal to the Ottoman empire. Far from it. The ones fighting for the Empire were the ones fighting for their homeland. Kolokotronis and his thugs were fighting for personal gain and for the interests of the foreign powers who instigated the numerous "Greek" insurgencies.

 

But even if their reasons were genuine, which they were not, the things they did can not be justified:

 

 

Women, wounded with musketballs and sabre-cuts, rushed to the sea, seeking to escape, and were deliberately shot. Mothers robbed of their clothes, with infants in their arms plunged into the sea to conceal themselves from shame, and they were them made a mark for inhuman riflemen. Greeks seized infants from their mother's breasts and dashed them against rocks. Children, three and four years old, were hurled living into the sea and left to drown. When the massacre was ended, the dead bodies washed ashore, or piled on the beach, threatened to cause a pestilence

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Guest eyoismos

as usual out there somewhere in outer space

when did i say or even suggest justification for atrocities as righteous indignation.... i never condoned it but but suggested it was  understandable

 

what is even more interesting was your conclusions out of thin air on just about everything ...absolutely wild

 

but i need not worry .... your capacity for ...how did you put? The twists, the turns, the intelectual triple backward flips... Magificent!

 

so .... keep on smoking the tumbling weed in texas

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just for the record ...

 

Greek Orthodox church records are excellent sources for accurate information on names, dates, and places of births, marriages, and deaths. Most people who lived in Greece were recorded in a church record. Greek Orthodox churches have made records for several centuries. Some church records in Greece begin in the sixteenth century, although most registers begin in the late 1600s and early 1700s. For birth, marriage, and death records after about 1840, there may also be a civil record

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You mean Ottoman Christian Church records, which by the way are not all to extensive, prove Greekness?

Far from it!

 

But the fact that the ΤΣ and ΤΖ sounds do not exist in the Greek language proves beyond any doubt that words and names that contain those sounds have either Albanian, Slavic, Turkic or Romanic origins. Tzitzikosta, Tsavela, Tsipra, Tsoko, Tsolka....Tsergini, none of those are Greek names. And the last is almost certainly Albanian. You disagree? Go searching and then come back and tell me how many instances of ΤΣ and ΤΖ you have found in the Greek language.

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eyo:

 

fuck erasmus and his alleged correct pronunciation = what next ? that the greek originated words in English should be said and pronounced the english way and Greeks, the possessors of the language, have no say on Greek phonology! those very same linguists of the same mentality WOULD read greek like latin ... in absolute terms ... you know ... like pizza not pitsa and latin c = s and all the rest ... so ciao (pronounced chiao) to that school of thought :-P

Erasmus was a diligent sholar of THE GREEK language. He was not concerned with the language you speak which is Novo-Graecian. Big difference!

 

So he went ahead and did his best to figure out the phonetics of a dead language. Did he get it right?

We will never know cause the native speakers of the Greek tongue went extinct at least 1400 years before Erasmus was even born.

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Guest FriendofGreece

Admin - that's a very nice story with your grandfather. Thanks for sharing it.

 

This reminds me I read somewhere that French Canadian (Quebecois) is the dialect the people in some area in old France used to speak, even some royalty or something like that. It is like time was frozen when people left France to go to Canada.

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Since you're making a connection to the Quebecois should I assume that you're a fellow Canadian from Quebec?

 

Yes, it's true that while the French language continued evolving in France, it somehow remained "stagnant" in Quebec. I have a few French friends from France and they see Quebecois similar to the French people speak in some villages in France today.

 

Probably the same thing happened with some pockets of Greek speaking people in Anatolia. At some point they found themselves surrounded by non-Greek speaking people but they continued speaking the language of their ancestors. However, the Greek language in mainland Greece evolved with influences from the French, English, Spanish, Italian, Ottoman etc. conquerors over the centuries.

 

This is pretty typical and I've seen it in many Greek-communities throughout North America. It's pretty interesting meeting 2nd and 3rd generation Greeks who speak Greek the way their parents or grandparents taught them with an accent typical of the place their ancestors came from. I remember years ago I had met a Greek whose parents were from some remote village from Karditsa (central Greece), where people have a very distinct accent. The guy was in his late 30s but had never visited Greece in his life, yet he was fairly fluent in conversational Greek because he was speaking Greek to his parents and to the small community of Greeks in the place he lived. As expected this guy had the typical accent of a Greek who came from that area of Greece.

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Guest FriendofGreece

It is normal for a language to evolve with influences from the various conquerors. Even if it is not conquerors, a language still evolves with the times. It just shows that the language reflects the history the people lived through. 

 

It is a good thing that Greek communities in the diaspora keep their language, no matter with what accent.

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holly frigging cow !.... languages are actually dynamic and not static ? who fucking knew? i am shocked to the core with this revelation

 

ok ok ... ones doesnt need to be a rocket scientist to figure that out

 

only thing is ... and the irony of it all ... our resident self proclaimed rocket scientist pretty much categorically maintains that it should be static, if one expects an ethnicity of any sort to have claims to be from "the original" ... otherwise they are everything else but - in which case ... the world populations are a bunch of bastards

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holly frigging cow !.... languages are actually dynamic and not static ? who fucking knew? i am shocked to the core with this revelation

 

ok ok ... ones doesnt need to be a rocket scientist to figure that out

 

only thing is ... and the irony of it all ... our resident self proclaimed rocket scientist pretty much categorically maintains that it should be static, if one expects an ethnicity of any sort to have claims to be from "the original" ... otherwise they are everything else but - in which case ... the world populations are a bunch of bastards

If two languages are not mutually intelligible they are not the same language. Guess what, Greek and Novo Graecian are not mutually intelligible and that's why you can't call them both Greek. Sure they have some words in common but so do German and Dutch. You would not use the same appelation to describe the Dutch as well as the German language now would you? Greek is even more distand from whatever it is you speak. Admin already mentioned that Greek used PITCH modulation while Novo Graecian uses STRESS modulation. Ad to that the diference in phonetic values most vowels and some consonants have and the completely unknown phonetics of double vowels and you end up with a language that would sound more alien than chinese to your, and my, ears. Those are the undisputable facts.

 

Besides that, even if the language we speak today was Greek that still doesn't make us Greeks. There are many people who call Spanish their native tongue does this make them all Spaniards?

Are all English speakers English?

All Russian speakers Russian?

Not a chance.

 

So give up this unhealthy obession with the Greeks already. Lets get back to Kolokotronis he is part of the history of that shitty land we had the misfortune to call home. You still haven't presented any Homeric quotes that mention Albanians such as Tsergini, Tsipra or Tsitsikosta. Should I assume you havent found any?

 

Perhaps you should read the memoirs of Kolokotronis. They are very revealing. Here is a guy who stands ancle deep in blood and guts and watches women and children being tortured to death and cut to pieces and he doesn't give a flip. He just lets his boys have some fun. But as soon as it comes to the Albanians he jumps up and tells the gang you can't touch them. If you want to hurt them you've got to kill me first. He personaly ensures the withdrawal of the Albanians. And it gets even funnier. Those Albanians where enemy combatants and their families. Those were the guys who executed punitive expeditions into the villages on Ottoman orders. Those were the guys who hours ago were still fighting against Kolokotronis and his thugs. So our nr1 National Hero had no issue with the slaughter of women and children but he could not allow Albanians who had literaly blood on their hands suffer any harm. He had to let his kinsmen go.

 

At least thats what I make of it. Would love to hear your take.

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Guest eyoismos

your incredible capacity to consume peyote is truly amazing

I wanted to upload my copy of kolokotronis memoirs, but the limit imposed by hellenism did not allow me

so i found a link for anybody who would be interest, to download it for themselves
Κολοκοτρώνης Απομνημονεύματα

one should start with the γεννήθηκα bit, and it wont take too long to see what his father had to say about the albanians, somebosy by the way that was eventualy killed by the verysame albanians. logic dictates, considering those times, that ... well.... sympathy was not exactly conducive to the idea of having the albanians his bro's, and certainly not any sympathy towards them. read further and even more is revealed. dare i suggest, a divide and conquer strategy was more than likely on the cards ...and ...according to his own memoirs,

he does point out somewhere that he wasnt exactly a big fan of the massacre, and suggested to his "followers" to keep their cool, so to speak. so yes he is probably guilty in the fact that he suggested and not demand.

plus ... and i was reading somewhere some time back, though i am a bit hazy on the details,  on the islands atrtrocities where instigated on the turks, so that the locals, terrified of the repercussions by the turks where pretty much gang-pressed into the revolution... a method by the way that the turks themsleves utilized for like 400 years, so nothing new there

like i have repeatedly said, you habitually distort the truth and all the other truths, in order to accomplish your own agenda 0 there is no such thinga as one truth. period and as for your query about the ts sound, your snake-like insidious and poisonous baits you have become famous for makes me suspicious of your motives. and no, i didnt bother to check, as i already knew. in fact i always suspected that sound came from the roman conquerors . ditto for the later conquerors, the turks. it all part of the dynamics of language development and transformation over the ages... after all ... the latins had a real bad time pronouncing the 'χ' sound for all the greek words they embraced, they came up  with "ch" (not as in church) ..they just didnt have the sound in their vocabuarly.... so they adopted an adapted. why is that so difficult for you to understand that the greeks did the same in their language?

ditto for the 'γ' sound ... dont know about the dutch, for example, but the english certainly had and have a problem with it - the closest they have is the letter 'y' ... only its more like 'γι', as in yes, yellow and all the rest.

having said that, i will ask the afrikaaner, (you know...as opposed to the dutch original) friends i have, if the 'γ' sound exists in their language as for erasmus... the idea that he "designed" pronunciation of the ancients, lumping them all together, homeric, attic, and all the other variations, in order to accommodate the restrictions of his own language is to say amusing ...even more amusing is that his real intentions was to get to grips with the greek of the new testament, a greek that had already developed from the  past the ancient greek forms, an ancient greek that only had capital letters and no pronunciation accent elements, that only came about during the Hellenistic times

and thanks to him, words like ομοιοι where pronounced h-o-m-o-i-o-i ... you know ... latin style ...which made greek sound like yodling in an echo chamber

so fuck him and his alleged research, although credit might be worth given for trying, and maybe jus maybe he might have been on the right tack, maybe ... about undoubtadly he was a captive of his own dutch pride and prejudgements and prejudices ... but them .. we are talking about a germanic language...which kinda ultimately makes sense , and like any language, it gives an insight to the character and psyche and thought process of the native speaker (which i by the way no different to any oer language ..an yes... greek and greeks are no exception)

but this is not really important ... like i said, repeatedly... language and sound is dynamic, it changes and adapts to a myriad factors of environment

and for the record, and fuck me with a cobra, and to my total shock, greek is also spoken by greeks, russian is also spoken by the russians, and english is also spoken by the english .... (although truth be told. when some brits speak english, other brits cant understand a stitch and its all greek to them, so yeah ... maybe you are right) :P
 

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eyo:

 

and thanks to him, words like ομοιοι where pronounced h-o-m-o-i-o-i ... you know ... latin style ...which made greek sound like yodling in an echo chamber

So you admit that proper Greek sounds completely alien to you. And yet you continue to claim that you are a native Greek speaker.

What gives?

 

You can of course do as you wish but I'm curious to know what you think of Greek Academia which has been gradually adopting the Erasmus interpretation for quite a while now. Do you have an issue with them as well or is your beef exclusively with me? Do you question their motives?

 

And lets talk about Kolokotronis. Are you gonna be surprised when I tell you that all the things I've stated in respect to Kolokotronis are taken from the research papers of contemporary Greek historians who receive a salary from the Greek government for their work. Do you question their motives or the motives of the Government that pays their wages or am I the only enemy here?

 

Well buddy I'll tell you what my motivation is. I'm a Hellenic Nationalist to the bone. And I can't stand the Erasmus pronunciation either. But here is my point:

 

Idiots like you, aka all Greeks, go on my fucking nerves. If I were to call the Greek Academics who call Kolokotronis an Albo maniac TRAITORS you would call me a nazi. If I were to call the current government of Greece who pays people to produce that pseudo history shit a bunch of foreign agents you would call me a lunatic conspiracy theorist.

 

But as soon as I state what they preach you get all worked up and see evil intent. Can you explain that to me?

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Guest eyoismos

 

I'm a Hellenic Nationalist to the bone

holly mother mary, jesus and joseph !!!! (just to piss you off) :P

put my head between a hammer and an anvil and give me a blow job with an industrial strength vacuum cleaner

 

first a pontian, then an anatolian, then a persian, then a ottoman, rooting for the hegemony of turkey ...and now this ??? 

 

i knew that texan peyote was potent, but i couldnt even dream it was that bad

:D

 

as for the rest of the ramble, ... simply  but blabbering of a monkey way into the stratosphere turbocharged with high octane crack

 

but i will way this ....

 

Idiots like you, aka all Greeks, go on my fucking nerves. If I were to call the Greek Academics who call Kolokotronis an Albo maniac TRAITORS you would call me a nazi. If I were to call the current government of Greece who pays people to produce that pseudo history shit a bunch of foreign agents you would call me a lunatic conspiracy theorist.

 

my rants and raves and my throwing my toys out the cot, wild and barely sane tyrades, when it came to our "wonderful" and "super-efficent" civil servants is legendary on this forum alone. in fact i dont remember ever praising them for anything. and the above is proof enough that you are off your rocker

 

as for the last bit .... i live in a country with 70 different indigenous tribes let alone all the other tribes of white yellow brown and god knows what not, i have learned the hard way to suspect intentions with hidden agendas, good, bad or ugly, when i see and recognize them for what they are. and i have become quite good at that

 

that same experience also allows me to also suspect the possibility that an individual might often be playing the devil's advocate

Thing is, if i was satan, and you are playing the above role, which is a definite possibility,  i would have fired your ass long time go. the KISS principle dictates that if one is going to bullshit, stick to your guns and be consistant, because bullshit would eventually turn to manure, a very usefull product. if not ... you end up with a tornado in a cesspool ...and nobody likes that. satan needs supporters to worship him

:D

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