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Would you support a return to the Megali Idea as well as a more nationalistic Greece?

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Guest FriendofGreece

China in Africa. Interesting points of view from an expert.

 

 

 

 

Will Africa feed China?

 

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http://www.afr.com/news/world/asia/china-its-got-so-big-it-changes-everything-20160815-gqsrky

 

"Giant role in developing Africa

An insight into how OBOR might work can be gained from the remarkable success China has so far achieved in its economic engagement with Africa. China now plays a pivotal role, largely because of its no-nonsense, non-judgmental, can-do approach.

Examples of China's infrastructure prowess in Africa abound, from a new deep water port in Kenya, to railways throughout East Africa and roads and hospitals in Guinea-Bissau. Elsewhere there is a lengthening list of new roads, hospitals, ­airports, power stations, railways and schools springing up with billboards ­featuring Chinese aid organisations.

They are providing an infrastructure that could help Africa emerge from half a century of mendicant state status and a litany of wars, starvation, pestilence and rampant corruption. From a paltry $US1 billion in bilateral trade 35 years ago, Chinese-African trade and investment flows have risen an astonishing 200-fold.

At the same time China is strengthening its grip on resources and political goodwill in an Africa with abundant reserves of oil, gas, iron ore, coal, copper, gold, diamonds and uranium, plus enormous potential to contribute to global food security.

Fitch Ratings has estimated that China's Export-Import Bank extended $US67.2 billion in loans to sub-Saharan African countries between 2001 and 2010 – $US12.5 billion more than the World Bank. The figures are potentially stratospheric, with the Export-Import Bank of China forecasting a few years ago that by 2025, China will have provided Africa with $US1 trillion in financing, including direct investment, soft loans and commercial loans."

 

This is of course the reason why Europe sees China as a thread. Europeans rather see the crackers who were running the apparthaid regime continue to run virtually all major farming and mining operations in Africa plundering the continet and taking theier orofits to Europe. And Europe ensures that it stays that way by issuing export loan garanties to those robber barons. The african post colonial elite drives Mercedes gets a cut, which they also take to Europe, and is quite confy with the arrangement. But here comes China, which puts shoes on the feet of the common African, a shirt on his ass and a cellphone in his hand. And it trades with the Africans directly, without European loan garanties. It it engages in trade without judging local customs, culture, ideology.

 

What Europe fears is that the Europeans who stayed back to run the postcolonial scam in Africa may soon lose their usefullness while a dynamic young African population will expand into Europe. Considering that Africa doubles her population of 1.2 bil today every 27 years you can be sure that Europes future is racialy black. And only those who remain attacheted to the unfounded myth of European superiority can expect European culture to survive the coming masive demographic shift. The rest of the world can look forward to better times where Euro-pricks have become an endangered species. 

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Right, so China invests in Africa because of the goodness of their heart. That's priceless... :lol:

 

Africa is a logical place for the Chinese to extend their geopolitical influence. They're already the major power in Asia, there's nowhere to move to westwards of them as India is a traditional rival of China and so are the Japanese to their east.

Europe is not a realistic option for them, even though they do expand slowly in places like Greece (where they've taken over the port of Piraeus and they're looking to invest in other areas too).

 

So investing in Africa and expanding their influence there is really a no brainer. Africa is still rich in raw materials, from gold and platinum to a much more important mineral to the Chinese called "coltan" - eyoismos may have more info on this.

 

Nothing new here. Colonialism has changed its ways as clearly shown by the Chinese. There are other ways to extort influence on local populations other than military force.

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Yeah the Chinese engage in TRADE and offer something in return for African raw materials. Namely: manufactured goods. While the Europeans continue to rob Africa by paying off the local Euro bootlicker elite with Euro assets. And if the White Crackers who still controll much land and resources in Africa get nervous France is sure to send in its bloodthirsty legion and shoot the place up. As they do twice a year or so. Europeans are directly responsible for every conflict and attrocity comitted in Africa in modern times and yet they dare preaching about human rights, justice the rule of law and other bs. Compared to that the Chinese are hands down the more benevolent power. Don't go comparing merchants with brigands and murderers.

 

The image below shows the places in Africa where France is busy pillaging and murdering.

screen_shot_2015-01-21_at_2_27_08_pm-2.j

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Your main mistake is that you think that Europeans today still deal with things as they did in the 18th and 19th centuries. Times have changed.

 

Chinese and Europeans (and Americans...) are not doing things any differently when they deal with "stealing" raw resources from Africa. They all call it "trade". They don't need to wage wars anymore.

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Your main mistake is that you think that Europeans today still deal with things as they did in the 18th and 19th centuries. Times have changed.

 

Chinese and Europeans (and Americans...) are not doing things any differently when they deal with "stealing" raw resources from Africa. They all call it "trade". They don't need to wage wars anymore.

Trade does not require armed presence and intervention. The French are trading, in the places shown in the map, at gun point. Just as they did in the 19th century.

 

Among civilized people this kind of trade is called Robery. If its all the same, as you claim, why don't you show me Chinese troops on a rampage in Africa? 

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Guest FriendofGreece

The Chinese have never claimed they are investing in Africa out of the goodness of their heart. It is all business (win-win cooperation). China wants resources, Africa wants infrastructure, hospitals, schools, stadiums, presidential palaces, etc. Whatever Africa wants in exchange for the resources, China builds. Africa does not have anything else to pay for what it wants, so it has to pay with resources. It is up to the African governments to make good deals. Now that China has built a lot of infrastructure, you see Japan, India, the US, the European countries, etc., coming back in droves apart from those who are already there, which increases the leverage of the Africans to make better deals for themselves.  

 

I am surprised the Africans do not publicize this more:

 

http://www.siliconafrica.com/france-colonial-tax/

 

"Did you know many African countries continue to pay colonial tax to France since their independence till today!"

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Guest FriendofGreece

Another article on what the French to do the Africans POST-COLONIZATION.

 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/frances-colonial-tax-still-enforced-for-africa-bleeding-africa-and-feeding-france/5547512

 

France’s Colonial Tax Still Enforced for Africa. “Bleeding Africa and Feeding France”

 

Global Research, September 25, 2016
World Bulletin 14 January 2015
 
 

When Guinea demanded independence from French colonial rule in 1958, the French unleashed their fury with more than 3,000 leaving the country taking their enteire property. In addition, they destroyed anything that couldn’t be taken – destroying schools, nurseries, public administration buildings, cars, books, medicine, research institute instruments, tractors were crushed and sabotaged, animals killed and food in warehouses were burned or poisoned. In effect they were sending a message to all other colonies that the consqueences for jrejecting France would be high.

Colonialism as an enduring stain in Africa’s history, and economic oppression continue to exist. An article by Mawuna Remarque Koutonin, peace activist and editor of SiliconAfrica.com addressed this practice.

The article called attention to an ongoing practice by which former African countries are forced to pay a colonial tax to France – even today. In fact, France continues to thrive on the practice, which extracts approximately 500 billion dollars from African countries each year.

france-africa-ivory.jpg

After the French destroyed Guinea who had sought independence, the alternative was to pay a tax. No African country could estimate the effect this had on 14 different countries.

As Koutonin notes, this outrageous tax deprives African economies of much needed funds, exacerbates debt, and strips their authority over their own natural reserves. But the detriments are more than just economic, as the ills of colonialism manifest in social ways that are equally devastating to the dignity and identity of the African people:

Sylvanus Olympio, the first president of the Republic of Togo, instead of signing the colonisation continuation pact with De Gaulle, instead agreed to pay an annual debt to France for the so called benefits of French colonisation. This prevented the French not destroying the country before they left however  the amount estimated by France was so big that the reimbursement of the so called “colonial debt” was close to 40% of the country budget in 1963. Olympio’s dream was to build an independent and self-sufficient and self-reliant country but the French had him killed by a seargeant who was given a $612 bounty by the French embassy.

History has shown that despite years of African fighting to liberate themselves, France repeatedly used many exForeign legionnaires to carry out coups against elected presidents. This included Jean-Bedel Bokassa who assassinated David Dacko, the first President of the Central African Republic. In the last 50 years, a total of 67 coups has occurred in 26 African countries, of which 16 are ex-French colonies. This indicates that France is desperate to hold on to whatever land it has in Africa.

In March 2008, former French President Jacques Chirac said:

“Without Africa, France will slide down into the rank of a third [world] power” and that Chirac’s predecessor François Mitterand already prophesied in 1957 that:

“Without Africa, France will have no history in the 21st century”.

west-africa-french-colonial.jpg

Colonial Tax in the Billions

As of January 2014, 14 african countries are obliged by France, through a colonial pact, to put 85% of their foreign reserve into France central bank under French minister of Finance control.They are effectively putting in 500 Billion dollars every year to the French treasury. African leaders who refuse are killed or victim of coup. Those who obey are supported and rewarded by France with lavish lifestyle while their people endure extreme poverty, and desperation.

There are a number of components of the colonisation pact that has been in effect since the 1950′s. The main points being that the African countries should deposit their national monetary reserves in the France Central Bank. France has been holding the national reserves of fourteen african countries since 1961: Benin, Burkina Faso, Guinea-Bissau, Ivory Coast, Mali, Niger, Senegal, Togo, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Chad, Congo-Brazzaville, Equatorial Guinea and Gabon.

Despite the two main African banks having African names, they have no monetary policies of their own. In fact France allows them to access only 15% of the money in any given year. If there is need for any more, they need to borrow the extra money from their own 65% from the French Treasury at commercial rates.

The pact also included claused that Africa had an obligation to make French the official language of the country and the language for education and an obligation to use France colonial money FCFA (the Nordic countries tried unsuccessfully to get rid of this system when they discovered this).Also, they were obliged to send France an annual balance and reserve report. If they refused to send it, they would not be entitled to any money .

Obligation to ally with France in situation of war or global crisis

Over one million Africans soldiers fought for the defeat of nazism and fascism during the second world war. With their contribution ignored or minimised, the French know that Africans could be useful for fighting, which in effect shows that France is psychopathic when it comes to Africa.

The only question that remains unanswered however is when people first reaction when they learn about the french colonial tax is often a question: “Until when?”

Christof Lehmann wrote for nsnbc.me in 2012,

“France is indebting and enslaving Africans by means of Africa’s own wealth; for example: 12.0000 billion invested at three percent creates 360 billion in interests which France grants as credits to Africa at an interest rate of five to six percent or more. The allegory of ‘Bleeding Africa and Feeding France’ is no exaggeration, not alarmist, and not revolutionary.”

 

The original source of this article is World Bulletin
Copyright © World BulletinWorld Bulletin, 2016

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Guest FriendofGreece

Not to forget that all the European museums are hoarding looted treasures from their colonies and countries they invaded. If you take those looted treasures out of the museums, there is nothing left to show about European culture, OK, maybe some paintings like the Mona Lisa. ;)

 

Some examples of looted treasures:

 

The Parthenon marbles:

 

http://www.britishmuseum.org/about_us/news_and_press/statements/parthenon_sculptures.aspx

 

1.5 million stolen Chinese artefacts are spread among museums mostly in the UK and France:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/6374959/China-to-study-British-Museum-for-looted-artefacts.html

 

Sacking Buddhist treasures on the Silk Road. This book is an excellent read:

 

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/149749.Foreign_Devils_on_the_Silk_Road

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Guest FriendofGreece

The Louvre - Looted artefacts from Sumeria

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXwW-eslSzM

 

The websites of the museums have been changed significantly from the past. Nowadays, they don't show much of the stolen collections, since various countries have been asking for the return of their artefacts. In the past, you could see how proudly they displayed their infinite stolen goods with pictures and descriptions.

 

http://www.louvre.fr/en/departements

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Guest eyoismos

i see the title of the major categories of the quoted  World bulletin and i see .....

 

world - Turkey - Economy - Islamic World - Hajj ..... and all the other standard stuff

 

 

draw your own conclusions about alleged accuracy non-bias and all the rest coming from that website

 

as for stolen artifacts ...  yes and no .... and maybe ........ THEN , whenever then was

 

what comes to mind immediately is those fanatic burst arshole muslim ISIS extremists and the capacity to blow up their own heritages  like temples and artifacts from ancient history

 

but by the same token all those "smart" americans , civilian and military, wherever they have invaded ...to bring democracy ...  stole a shot load of artifacts top take home as souveneirs ... let alone trade with certain "museums"

 

 

point is history and reality is a multifaceted face of bias, in its accuracy

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and while we are at it ... another interesting observation ... when the europeans where screwing up the greek economy with their antics and policies ... most here ... it was the greeks fault

 

 

but when then did ..and do .. in africa ..... its the european colonialist fault ...never the africans

 

and we wont even mention the concept of ... at the hight of slavery ... the europeans wherent exactly going off marauding for "raw materials" to send to the americas ...... they where all relying on their suppliers .... Africans themselves who had a beef with opposing tribes  .... and let us not forget the whole rwanda thing with the Hutu and Tutsi  .... and everybody was bitching that the europeans/americans didnt get involved to save the genocide from happening ..... yet strangely not a word about why the chinese didnt get involved either ..... while eveybody forgets ... or ignores ... the chinese didnt get involved for the same reason that the europeans didnt .... no raw materials worth scavenging over

 

which makes some of you here full of shite

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eyo:

 

what comes to mind immediately is those fanatic burst arshole muslim ISIS extremists and the capacity to blow up their own heritages  like temples and artifacts from ancient history

 

Here you go again with the western superiority complex which compels you to tell "Them" what their heritage is and how to deal with it. You are of course entitled to your personal opinion, and I agree that what they are doing is stupid, but we are in no place to either condone nor condemn their actions. What they do with their own real-estate is none of our business. It is theirs and theirs alone to do with it as they please.

 

 

Which can not be said in the case of French Catholic Abbe Fourmont. That guy, funded by French Catholics, made it his life's mission to travel from France all the way to Laconia, hire Laconian peasants, and have them dig up, break to pieces, and dump into the sea, all that remained of ancient Sparta. He writes:

 

 

For a month now, despite illness, I have been engaged with thirty

workmen in the entire destruction of Sparta; not a day passes but I find

something, and on some I have found up to twenty inscriptions. You

understand, Monsieur, with what great joy, and with what fatigue, I

have recovered such a great quantity of marbles. . ..

 

 

If by overturning its walls and temples, if by not leaving one stone

on another in the smallest of its sacella, its place will be unknown in

the future, I at least have something by which to recognise it, and that

is something. I have only this means to render my voyage in the Morea

illustrious, which otherwise would have been entirely useless, which

would have suited neither France, nor me.

 

 

If you think ISIS are Barbarians for breaking some stones in their backyard, then how do you describe France that produced Abbe Fourmont and many others like him?

 

You'll say that was then and now "WE WESTERNERS" know better but was there ever a time when Judeo-Christians didn't know better?

 

And since Novo-Graecians are counted among the westerners lets consider my namesake and patron saint of the Novo-Graecian Navy.

Saint Nicholas.

 

agios-nikolaos.jpg

 

His greatest achievement, for which he was elevated to sainthood, was the destruction of the Temple of Artemis. And here we are, centuries later, celebrating every 6th of December the destroyer of one of the 7 wonders of the ancient world as a saint while condemning ISIS for doing their business in their domain. Don't you see the hypocrisy in this?

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Here you go again with the western superiority complex which compels you to tell "Them" what their heritage is and how to deal with it.

 

"western superiority complex" ? really ? is that the best crap you can come up with? next you will be telling us that isis represents the huge majority of iraqees and syrians and that their right to blow their antiquities of their past ..and i mean of iraq , or syria for that matter ...

 

next you will be claiming that the whole muslim world supports isis

 

 

the above just tells anybody how full of shit you are ... and your propensity to come up with outrageous claims based out even more outrageously borderline propaganda crap passing off as facts

 

but then i suppose its "western superiority complex" that has egyptians passionately if fanatically  proud of their glorious pre-muslim past, their Pharaohs, their pyramids, their achievements .... their .... oh why bother ... when one talks bull like so often you do , and talks completely out of context ...just so you can exhibit your own inferiority complexes , but pointing out the faults of others in such a big way, in an attmpt to hide the forest from the trees and make the water thick as mud

 

 

and while we are  at it .. st nick had fuckall to do with the distruction of the temple of artemis  ... the first time it was destroyed by floods, the 2nd by arson, the 3rd by marauding invading goths .  that whole thing about st nick doing the dirty is just one of the many myths that have been dreamed up ...by people like yourself, ...but way way way in the past .... for their own specific propaganda purposes and intents to sway common opinion  (as opposed to reality and fact) so people like yourself believing that crap of so called st nick and his sins as fact ....

 

... the side of the fence might be different ... but the methods of manipulation is EXACTLY the same

or to paraphrase .... a snake by any other name is still a snake

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Yes. Western superiority complex. Why is it any of your business what ISIS does in their own land? They represent Islam and the people who live in the region. It is the support of those people who keeps them around against the efforts of western "Saviors". If the locals dont feel represented by ISIS it is up to them to chase them away. Or are you suggesting that they wont be able to do it without the aid of the Anglo-Franco-American Superman?

 

As far as the St. Nick story is concerned. I didn't make it up. The story is so popular in Orthodox Christianity that they even made it into a graphic novel.

 

270974.jpg

agios+Nikolaos-Lydia.jpg

270975.jpg

 

If you find it offensive complain to your Orthodox Church that publishes this kind of Christian manga. Don't go on about ISIS which is none of your business. If you want to criticise "Barbarism" start with the Greek Church for her habit to glorify "Barbarian" saints.

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Guest FriendofGreece

i see the title of the major categories of the quoted  World bulletin and i see .....

 

world - Turkey - Economy - Islamic World - Hajj ..... and all the other standard stuff

 

 

draw your own conclusions about alleged accuracy non-bias and all the rest coming from that website

 

 

This is what the Global Research (Wordbulletin) website says about itself:

 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/about

 

Mind you, I think the readers of this forum are intelligent enough to read different point of views and draw their own conclusions. I myself never rely on only one source of information. If anyone is interested, they can always make more research and bring into the discussion. Out of lack of time, nobody can spend time to check everything. That's what a forum is for, for discussion. 

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Guest FriendofGreece

but by the same token all those "smart" americans , civilian and military, wherever they have invaded ...to bring democracy ...  stole a shot load of artifacts top take home as souveneirs ... let alone trade with certain "museums"

 

 

Don't worry, Americans steal artefacts from other countries too. If you read the book on the Buddhist artefacts on the Silk Road, you will see that they were all there looting and destroying ... Americans, Germans, British, French, Russians, etc. I have not been to museums in the US but there must be plenty of looted artefacts there too.

 

 

and while we are at it ... another interesting observation ... when the europeans where screwing up the greek economy with their antics and policies ... most here ... it was the greeks fault

 

 

I have always been the staunchest defender of the Greeks and Greece against the Europeans' treatment.

 

As for the Greek artefacts, it is a shame that they were stolen and destroyed by whoever is involved. Greece must continue, with other countries, to apply international pressure, one way or the other, to get back the Parthenon marbles and much more artefacts that are scattered around the world, i.e. Europe and North America. Thing is those artefacts are not only in museums but also in private collections which we do not see.

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Guest FriendofGreece

This is a very good review of the book "Foreign devils on the Silk Road":

 

 

The book is truly excellent to read and made a big impact on me, especially at the end where the author said that the stash of Buddhist scriptures that they took from the Buddhist monk was left in the basement of the British museum somewhere for years, still in the boxes in which they were shipped to the UK, unopened and unread. One can wonder what for they stole those, especially considering the British are Christian, maybe just for the resale value? 

 

When I have time, I am going to read the book again, although I remember I was utterly upset by those "Foreign devils" who destroyed the Buddhist paintings in the caves. Highly recommended.

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Guest eyoismos

 

If you find it offensive complain to your Orthodox Church that publishes this kind of Christian manga. Don't go on about ISIS which is none of your business. If you want to criticise "Barbarism" start with the Greek Church for her habit to glorify "Barbarian" saints.

 

and yet you perpetuate it AS IF it was true ... which makes you a fool

 

and i dont find it offensive ... i find it amusing ... the perfect way to put some tossers in this part of the world ... including the religiously blinded,   in their places giving them a massive taste of humility awakening, while eating crow  ... remember once ... one person in particular got all ass bent when i pointed out the krifo scholeio was a myth created for propaganda purposes ...etc etc etc ... that person is STILL pissed off and refuses to believe the facts

 

but in the mean time i dont perpetuate myths as true ...unlike some others ...we wont mention names

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as for ISIS bashing ... the stuff they destroyed does not belong to them ... but to the people of that region,  many  of which, because of the war, booked out to the four winds.... that DOES NOT mean they dont have those artifacts as their heritage .... not to mention that islam was not even a twinkle in muhammed's eye let alone aything else when those said artifacts wher created, hih makes them of world heritage worth let alone the syrians, etc etc etc

 

so excuse me while i continue to bash those wanker murdering bastard banshee religious whores still living in the dark ages....and you can keep riding your holier than though horse of world non-reality

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Your cognitive abilities amaze me!

 

What exactly is a Myth?

The FACT that Christianity destroyed Hellenic Monuments?

 

And who exactly is perpetuating the myth?

I, by drawing attention to Christian Manga where the Orthodox church boasts of that achievement?

 

I suppose Kostis Stephanopoulos was perpetuating the myth too when he, as the only Greek official to date, suggested the Anathemas against the Greeks be removed from Orthodox liturgy. To no avail of course. The average Novo-Graecian pretends to overhear them and instead accuses those who point it out of perpetuating "Myths".

 

Well, that's how Greeks are and that's why I enjoy seeing this shitty little country and her abhorrent people go down the crapper.

Learn Turkish, you'll need it soon enough.

 

 

btw. The ISIS guys are the people of that region and do as they please with their stuff. I haven't seen any Syrians get worked up about Palmyra but if it is that important to YOU, send your kids to fight and protect it.

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Guest cyprusellas

Would you as a Native Greek or Greek-American (or any nationality) support the idea of the Megali Idea and conquer what was historically Ancient Greek land. For example retaking Constantinople and Western Turkey and reclaiming the rest of Cyprus. Would you also support the rebuilding of Greek infrastructure and Ancient Monuments, such as the the Colossus of Rhodes, Parthenon, and Statue of Zeus to instill a greater sense of nationality in Greece. My third question is whether or not you would support the reclaiming of our own history from the Former Yugoslavic Republic of Macedonia, who shamelessly stole Alexander The Great as their own and built monuments to him and his father in their Skopje. As a Greek-American I'm fully behind these ideas and believe we should carry them out and restore Greece as a dominant world nation once we fix our economy, by leaving the European Union and bringing back the Greek Drachma. We were once the pinnacle of human civilization and our day will come again, I'm sure of it. However I doubt any of this can be carried out under our current corrupt government and I would suggest a revolution and model the constitution off of America which I believe is one of the best written governments to date. i'm curious if other Greeks agree with any of this and believe in it like I do. America got blessed with Donald Trump, it's time Greece had hers.

I'm in favour of having that done. Im very patriotic myself and I find it difficult to come by fellow Greeks who are. I feel our roots and culture are being lost. I started a topic called declining as a race and so far only 2 people have contributed.

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I'm in favour of having that done. Im very patriotic myself and I find it difficult to come by fellow Greeks who are. I feel our roots and culture are being lost. I started a topic called declining as a race and so far only 2 people have contributed.

 

You must be out of your freaking mind!

Have you ever been to Istanbul? There are over 15 mil people in the city. More than 20 mil in the surrounding area (aka eastern Thrace and the adjacent Kocaeli province). In case you don't know, Greece has around 10 mil people. Lets set ethics aside and look at the Megali Idea from a purely technical vantage point: It is technically impossible.

 

But even if it were possible to conquer, lets say the area around Istanbul, how would that play out in your head?

Field Marshal Panos Kamenos leads our glorious troops to Konstantinople, Patriarch Bartholomew crowns Alexis the 1st emperor of the Neo-Byzantine empire and the faithful sing "Τη υπερμάχω στρατηγώ τα νικητήρια" in the Hagia Sophia while 20 mil Turks cower in fear or flee to the rest of Turkey?

Dream on....

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