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Guest PatrickT

solving the refugee crisis

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Guest FriendofGreece

.. to cut a long story short, that ceo turned around to me, obviously annoyed, and asked what he should do. i, also annoyed with the bull that was handed to me, retorted by saying, "if i knew the answers, i would be in your position as the big man, and you would be working for me. my job is it do fault finding in my game, and that is exactly what i am doing right now ... outside my game"

 

 

Well, interesting reaction from you, Eyoismos. I, on the contrary, was always teeming with suggestions and ideas when there is a problem in real life. However, since I brought up the ideas, and people liked them, they always asked me to implement them. I used to do at the beginning but later on, I refused saying, well, it is enough that I came up with the ideas, if I had to implement them too each time, in addition to my regular workload, that would discourage me from proposing anything more. I have learned to shut my mouth since. :D  If people really care, let them come up with a solution themselves.

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Guest eyoismos

We were talking about putting the leaders and the small group of followers, not all the migrants. Give only water then, I don't care. They usually threaten to go on hunger strike if you don't give what they want. Maybe cut the water too.

hmmm ... so what you are suggesting that some have more  rights than others ... in prison

 

somehow i disagree ... all prisoners should be treated the same .... as prisoners, ...and when prisoners cause problems within their confinements, there is always isolation. Hunger strikes are only threated if they have access to the media...deprive them of the media, and a consequence of that all the politically correct tossers , and guess what ... no hunger strikes

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Guest FriendofGreece

This discussion, we already had previously, yes, diaspora, please do something to help Greece. 

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Guest eyoismos

Well, interesting reaction from you, Eyoismos. I, on the contrary, was always teeming with suggestions and ideas when there is a problem in real life. However, since I brought up the ideas, and people liked them, they always asked me to implement them. I used to do at the beginning but later on, I refused saying, well, it is enough that I came up with the ideas, if I had to implement them too each time, in addition to my regular workload, that would discourage me from proposing anything more. I have learned to shut my mouth since. :D  If people really care, let them come up with a solution themselves.

 

been there, done that, seen the movie, and now have the souvenirs to prove it, and the wounds to show for it 

 

why do you think i had that particular reaction that i had ? :D

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Guest FriendofGreece

They are aliens, not Greek prisoners, they don't have any rights in Greece, just obligations to follow the law. Well, figure that, I have noticed that none of the ones who threatened hunger strike died of hunger. 

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Guest FriendofGreece

been there, done that, seen the movie, and now have the souvenirs to prove it, and the wounds to show for it 

 

why do you think i had that particular reaction that i had ? :D

 

So tell us about those see, just for fun.

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Guest eyoismos

They are aliens, not Greek prisoners, they don't have any rights in Greece, such obligations to follow the law. Well, figure that, I have noticed that none of the ones who threatened hunger strike died of hunger. 

aliens have legal right too ..... and guess why they didnt die of hunger ... access to the media and they got what they wanted

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Guest eyoismos

So tell us about those see, just for fun.

well for starters ... i strongly suggested ... forget the big iron mainframes and minis, go put some serious emphasis on networks and pcs. their reaction ? ... "promoted" me to being support for their totally minor sideline of pcs ...as workstations for the big iron

they just couldnt see or visualize the forest from the trees of the future. old school geriatric corporate thinking tends to do that (and that has absolutely no relationship to the age of the big boys, some of which was quite young, some in fact where younger than me at the time ...all products of monolithic (or should i say paleolithic) business degree methods

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This discussion, we already had previously, yes, diaspora, please do something to help Greece. 

you should rephrase that:

 

"Please MALAKES do something to help Greece"

 

The sad reality is that Greece views the diaspora as wankers. They do take our money of course and they go partying it up on our dime. And then they turn around and tell us: You guys are idiots you don't know how to "Live". And oh boy do they get cross when we express our opinion! Then we get the "Go back to Germany Lazogermane" treatment. Feel free to replace the Germane with Amerikane, Kanade, Australe.....

 

The Greek diaspora doesn't lack the willingness to invest in Greece. It is the attitude of the homeland that makes them stay away. So once again the key to the solution of the problem lies in Greece but the Greek government has misplaced it.

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Guest FriendofGreece

well for starters ... i strongly suggested ... forget the big iron mainframes and minis, go put some serious emphasis on networks and pcs. their reaction ? ... "promoted" me to being support for their totally minor sideline of pcs ...as workstations for the big iron

they just couldnt see or visualize the forest from the trees of the future. old school geriatric corporate thinking tends to do that (and that has absolutely no relationship to the age of the big boys, some of which was quite young, some in fact where younger than me at the time ...all products of monolithic (or should i say paleolithic) business degree methods

 

Few people are visionary, that is why their success is huge if they are spot on. But to achieve success, they need perseverance and most of all, luck. People who take big risks win big, if they win, otherwise, well, they may lose big. But doing nothing, you are sure to get nothing.

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Guest FriendofGreece

... The Greek diaspora doesn't lack the willingness to invest in Greece. It is the attitude of the homeland that makes them stay away. So once again the key to the solution of the problem lies in Greece but the Greek government has misplaced it.

 

In this case, it is not investment I meant, but more pressure on the Greek government about stopping the invasion and protecting the borders and the Greek population.

 

Somehow, there should be a way to tackle this problem about how Greeks/Greek government view diaspora, how can the two sides be reconciled for the good of the country? Bring up the patriotic card or something?

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Guest eyoismos

you should rephrase that:

 

"Please MALAKES do something to help Greece"

 

The sad reality is that Greece views the diaspora as wankers. They do take our money of course and they go partying it up on our dime. And then they turn around and tell us: You guys are idiots you don't know how to "Live". And oh boy do they get cross when we express our opinion! Then we get the "Go back to Germany Lazogermane" treatment. Feel free to replace the Germane with Amerikane, Kanade, Australe.....

 

The Greek diaspora doesn't lack the willingness to invest in Greece. It is the attitude of the homeland that makes them stay away. So once again the key to the solution of the problem lies in Greece but the Greek government has misplaced it.

yes its true ... and i have pointed this out several times, the despicable attitudes, but there is a way to fight it,.... deprive them of the money with outright blackmail, as i have pointed out several times before

 

and that HAS been done ... once ... when the greek goverment, not sure who was in power then,  went about begging for money to buy a submarine or two , and  the diaspora basically reacted with a fuck off

 

that the problems .. only once

 

now if they insisted , maybe just maybe it would swing things around ...maybe

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Guest eyoismos

... "Go back to Germany Lazogermane" treatment. .....

 

a hint of the treatment you had back home, thus your aggressive, sometimes outright hostile attitudes, towards them back home in reciprocation  ?

 

somehow i always thought so, and often expressed this

 

but believe me ... been there too ... and told them off there and then with words of my own , like ....eg ...  vromotourkika miala .... and usually walked off with total contempt muttering various things under my breath ... loud enough for them to hear , but not loud enough to be viewed by those around think i am a total dickwad..... on purpose of course

 

funny thing is .... what seemed to piss them off is not what i said, after all, swearing and cursing is a way of life in greece, but the "walking off with contempt". they never have been able to handle that ...much to my delight

 

hving said that ... we in the diaspora, especially 2nd generation onwards,  are product of our environment. thus certain attitudes and thinking of the diaspora in lets say germany is going to be different to lets say america, or australia, or yes even africa. but we ALL have something to contribute towards the betterment of greece

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Guest eyoismos

 

Πόσο μακριά βρισκόμαστε από την ίδρυση ενός Κουρδικού Κράτους; Ο πόλεμος στη Συρίας ίσως να έχει ως αποτέλεσμα την ίδρυσή του, με αμερικανική υποστήριξη, λένε παρατηρητές.

 

Εάν κάποιος επικεντρώσει την προσοχή του πάνω στον χάρτη τις περιοχές που βομβαρδίζουν οι Τούρκοι στην Συρία, θα καταλάβει ότι ο στόχος είναι η αποτροπή της κατάκτησης εδαφών από τους Κούρδους της Συρίας, που ενδέχεται να οδηγήσουν στη δημιουργία ενός ενιαίου Κουρδιστάν.

 

Ήδη στο Ιράκ το αυτόνομο Κουρδιστάν υπάρχει πάνω από μια δεκαετία, στην Τουρκία έχουν ξαναρχίσει οι σφοδρές ένοπλες συγκρούσεις στις κουρδικές περιοχές και συχνά οδηγούν σε μεγάλα πλήγματα τον τουρκικό στρατό, ενώ για να συμπληρωθεί το παζλ, απομένει η λωρίδα των Κούρδων κάτω από τη νότια Τουρκία, στην περιοχή που βρίσκεται πάνω από το Χαλέπι.

 

Αυτό ακριβώς είναι ο τουρκικός εφιάλτης. Σύμφωνα με τη ρωσική εφημερίδα ‘Ισβέστια’ επίκειται η δημιουργία αμερικανικών στρατιωτικών βάσεων στο Κουρδιστάν, με το πρόσχημα του αγώνα κατά του ‘ισλαμικού κράτους’, αποτελούν ένα στάδιο προετοιμασίας για την ίδρυση ενός κουρδικού κράτους.

 

Ο Ρώσος διπλωμάτης Βιτσλάβ Ματόζοφ διατύπωσε τη θέση, στη ρωσική εφημερίδα, ότι οι Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες δίνουν μόνο την έμφαση για την καταπολέμηση της τρομοκρατικής ομάδας του Ντάες, αλλά όλες οι κινήσεις τους δείχνουν ότι προτίθενται να εγκαθιδρύσουν ένα κουρδικό κράτος.

 

Βάσεις δημιουργήθηκαν στη Ροτζάβα, στο νότιο Κουρδιστάν, αλλά και στη θέση Μαχμούρ (Ιράκ). Για τη δημιουργία της στρατιωτικής βάσης στο Μαχμούρ, οι Αμερικανοί δεν ζήτησαν να λάβουν άδεια από την κυβέρνηση της Βαγδάτης.

 

Ορισμένοι Αμερικανοί εμπειρογνώμονες θεωρούν ότι οι βάσεις του αμερικανικού στρατού αποτελούν ένα βήμα για ένα κουρδικό κράτος, σημειώνει το δημοσίευμα.

 

Στις αρχές του μήνα, δημοσιογραφικές πληροφορίες ανέφεραν ότι οι Αμερικανοί κατασκευάζουν δυο αεροπορικές βάσεις στη Συρία στις κουρδικές ζώνες.Η μια ήδη κατασκευάστηκε και η άλλη είναι υπό κατασκευή. Η δεύτερη αναμένεται να έχει χρήση τόσο στρατιωτική όσο και πολιτική σύμφωνα με το κουρδικό πρακτορείο Bas.

 

Στο Rmeilan στην περιοχή της Hassake κοντά στο τριεθνές σύνορα Συρίας Ιράκ και Τουρκίας απ΄όπου οι κούρδοι διακήρυξαν την ομόσπονδη οντότητα τους εντός Συρίας η αμερικανική στρατιωτική βάση στη Συρία είναι έτοιμη.Η πίστα προσγείωσης είναι έτοιμη.

 

Οι ΗΠΑ κατάφεραν δια των κούρδων να πετύχουν αυτό που δεν κατόρθωσαν ν΄αποσπάσουν από τη συριακή κυβέρνηση αμερικανικές βάσεις επί του συριακού εδάφους.

 

Το πόσο σημαντικό είναι για τους Αμερικανούς η ίδρυση του αυτόνομου Κουρδιστάν στην περιοχή φαίνεται από τις κινήσεις που κάνουν.

 

Οι Αμερικανοί έσπευσαν να δηλώσουν ότι δεν θ΄αναγνωρίσουν την αυτονομία των Κούρδων της Συρίας, αλλά από την άλλη κάνουν τα πάντα για να τους ενισχύσουν.Το 70% των χτυπημάτων της αμερικανικής συμμαχίας επί συριακού εδάφους κατά του Ισλαμικού Κράτους ήταν στο Κομπάνι και γενικά σε περιοχές που σήμερα ελέγχουν οι Κούρδοι.

 

Οι περιοχές που ελέγχουν οι Κούρδοι είναι επίσης πλούσιες σε κοιτάσματα πετρελαίου και αυτό έχει τη σημασία του. Tο Κουρδιστάν της Τουρκίας είναι το λεγόμενο Βόρειο Κουρδιστάν ενώ αυτό που θεωρητικά επιμοιράζεται σε Συρία Ιράκ και Ιράν είναι το Νότιο Κουρδιστάν πλούσιο σε κοιτάσματα πετρελαίου.

 

Tα νομικά ερείσματα κινήσεων αυτονομίας των Κούρδων κατοχυρώνονται κυρίως με πράξεις διπλωματικές αναφορικά και κυρίως με την μειονότητα στην Τουρκία και στο Ιράκ.

 

  • Συνθήκη Σεβρών 10.8.1920 στους Κούρδους χορηγείται τοπική αυτονομία.Ανεφάρμοστη.
  • 1922 Ιρακινο-βρετανική διακήρυξη αναγνωρίζει το δικαίωμα στους Κούρδους να σχηματίσουν κυβέρνηση στα σύνορα.
  • Κοινωνία Εθνών αποφαίνεται να παραχωρηθεί στους Κούρδους του Ιράκ σχετική αυτονομία.

Οι Κούρδοι παγκοσμίως απαριθμούν 40 με 50 εκατ. Στη Συρία υπολογίζονται σε 2 εκατομμύρια. Στην Τουρκία είναι περίπου 12 με 15 εκατομμύρια και με άλλες εκτιμήσεις ως και 20 ενώ στο Ιράκ είναι 4,6 εκατομμύρια.

 

Οι Κούρδοι στη Β Συρία ελέγχουν τα 3 τέταρτα των συρο-τουρκικών συνόρων που αντιστοιχούν σε 400 χλμ.

 

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Guest eyoismos

am i surprised about this possible outcome or scenario?

 

hell no

 

why?

 

oil, what else?

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Guest

a hint of the treatment you had back home, thus your aggressive, sometimes outright hostile attitudes, towards them back home in reciprocation  ?

 

somehow i always thought so, and often expressed this

 

but believe me ... been there too ... and told them off there and then with words of my own , like ....eg ...  vromotourkika miala .... and usually walked off with total contempt muttering various things under my breath ... loud enough for them to hear , but not loud enough to be viewed by those around think i am a total dickwad..... on purpose of course

 

funny thing is .... what seemed to piss them off is not what i said, after all, swearing and cursing is a way of life in greece, but the "walking off with contempt". they never have been able to handle that ...much to my delight

 

hving said that ... we in the diaspora, especially 2nd generation onwards,  are product of our environment. thus certain attitudes and thinking of the diaspora in lets say germany is going to be different to lets say america, or australia, or yes even africa. but we ALL have something to contribute towards the betterment of greece

 

No. I don't care much about that. I can work perfectly well with people who outright hate me as long as the outcome is mutually beneficial. But pretty much every business deal I started in Greece ended as a loss. Root cause for this is the Greek "Koutoponiria". To give you an example:

 

I go set up an ofice jump through hoops to get a Tax ID and all licenses. Invest in infrastructure ofice space and equipment and, as a "Naive Lazogermanos" go and hire people paying them twice the going wage. All based on the assumption that the benefits of the venture are mutual and by paying a good wage I'll get a motivated team in return. Oh boy. Was I wrong. That's not how the Greek psyche works.

 

You pay them 20 while the going wage is 10 and they automaticaly assume that you make 200. Not even once do they consider that for the time being I'm making nothing. That I'm investing in the future success of a venture they are part of. The Greek "Koutoponiria" can be sumarized with one sentence:

 

"I do not gain if you don't lose"

 

The concept of mutual benefit and long or midterm prospects has no place in it. You pay them twenty they asume you make 40 so they come back and demand 41. You pay them 40 they asume you make 400 so they come back and demand 401. And they keep it up until you go broke in which case you lost and so by default they won. Or until you get tired of the shit and close shop. In which case you gave up and they won again. In their mind at least. If you want good people in Greece you'll have to hire Albanians or Romanians. Greeks, most of them, stink.

 

The latest in a long list of encounters that led me to my assesment of Greek mentality occured last summer. I had a heated debate with a 53 year old who went into retirement at 50 and was complaining about having lost 20% of his pension. When I said that he gets more out of the system then he put into it and asked if he realizes that the money has to come from somewhere so people of his age, like me, have to pay higher property taxes and VAT and income taxes so that he can continue to receive beyond of what he has earned he turns around and tells me: Where is the problem. You earn good money don't you? Working is all what donkeys like you can do after all. So here is a guy my age suggesting that I should work until I die and thus finance a system that lets him receive money for nothing. Because.... I am a "Gaidaros"!

 

Don't get me wrong. I like my work and I can't see myself sitting on my ass end doing nothing. I do hate the idea though that I should provide so that some piece of crap can do nothing. Which brings me back to the words of Palamas:

 

 

Ο αντίλογος μ' ανάθρεψε, με πότισε το μίσος

 

I just hate people who are willfully unreasonable.

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Guest eyoismos

i know exactly what you are saying ..though i may not have experienced what you have, i personally know enough greeks from this part of the world who have lost their shirts trying to invest in greece, and from their desciptions, encountered exactly the same crap

 

most ended up coming back

 

and that is just the attitudes of the workers.

 

my uncle, from the shipping business tried to build a house back on the island. to make a long story short, after many a torturous dealing wt the local yokels, guess what ..hired an albanian ... and all problems solved

 

funny thing ... my sister in her last visit to greece, had an interesting chat with this albanian, who by the way speaks greek better than a greek most of the time, and at one point, mentioned that he wad built a patriko back in his home, in albania. and he menioned that he flew two flags outside his home. th albanian one and the greek one. my sister didnt believe him,,,, so he showed pictures... she was amazed. so she asked him how come. he said .... albania because of my roots, greece because of my new roots.

 

in my last communication with my uncle in greece, that same albanian is STILL working for him on the island, has 2 kids, who are going through the greek education system ...and all the rest ... they are practically greek, for all intents and purposes

 

the greek mastoroi that have lost out? last i heard bitching like a blue ass fly on heat, and according to my uncle, are pretty much patriotic right wing golden dawners, well ..some of them, the others kke or syriza ...ALL bitching and pulling up the patriotic card

 

so in  way, its good that they are now hungry, so to speak , and now have eaten a serious case of crow

 

my dad, who has retired in greece, and now cursing that he did ...see your experiences for example, was telling me about the time many years ago, when he built what he did there, and he asked for a quote for painting his walls. Now growing up in africa, he wanted a shit load of glass to see the outside world - not exactly conducive to winter weather but still ...so anyway, and for example..... let say this wall was all glass with a "thin" surround wall to support it. as far as this cunt was concerned, all the wall including the glass area was quoted as paintable as one wall, glass and all.... and apparently this was quite legal ... totally immoral but legal

 

THAT is how fucked up greece is. so when i hear the artisans, plumbers, builders, whatever are suffering ...NOW ... i ma over the moon.... that the taxes brought about by syriza and her cronies are hurting them  ...even better

 

point is.... even though syriza has fucked up overall magnificently, ...there have been some benefits, like attitudes of certain groups have changed a tad.... i mean .... NOW my uncle get regular visits from the said whatever to beg to do a job or two almost at any cost ..to which he response is  TOO LATE and fuck off

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Guest eyoismos

the thing is ....and i never get tired blabbing about this .... your experiences with the fucking bureaucracy just to get something done, is not only a pain in the butt for those back home who complain but do nothing bout it, it ALSO concerns ALL of the diaspora who have learned and got used to other, far more efficient ways. and without the fakelaki curse

 

certain arseholes back home maintain we in the diaspora shouldnt have the vote because we dont live there. and yet we, here in the diaspora have to deal with many of the problems and frustrations and what not that those back home have to deal with. we are talking common ground in many areas. "they" think vote means for a party there and are not cool with that because they fear "they might lose out", we SHOULD think vote for representation, and fuck the party...for we SHOULD be the valve that sways things one way or another, obviously towards our favor ... like all so called voters concerned operate, no matter where in the world, but ultimately what concerns "us" concerns our brethren back home whether they, the kiss-assers like it or not

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Guest FriendofGreece

Very interesting life stories, guys. There sure are problems of perception of diaspora by the Greeks, which make it difficult to return.

 

There are 5-7 million diaspora (per wiki) versus 11 million in Greece. If a lot of diaspora return home, maybe you could deal between you, it would be easier. Then the Greeks would have to adapt to more efficient ways of doing business and work ethics. 

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Guest PatrickT

I dont accept greece excuse to not be able to protect its sea boarders. Spain does an excellent job doing so. So does australia and any other nation. What do you have a coast guard for?

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I dont accept greece excuse to not be able to protect its sea boarders. Spain does an excellent job doing so. So does australia and any other nation. What do you have a coast guard for?

As I stated before,

 

the situation has grown beyond the means of what the Greek Coast Guard can handle. This is not a public order but a national security issue and Greece should have dispatched the full strength of her Navy and Army to the East Aegean long time ago. Not doing so is one of the failures of the Greek Government (past and present).

 

 

On a different but related note:

Mardas, our genious vice secretary of foreign afairs discovered a new source for potential investment.

 

 

...υπάρχει ένα υποσύνολο προσφύγων το οποίο θα μπορούσε να φέρει τα χρήματά του στην Ελλάδα και από κει και πέρα να ενσωματωθεί και στην ελληνική κοινωνία, στον βαθμό που θέλει βέβαια, και να κάνει μια οποιαδήποτε επένδυση....

 

Απλά κάποια ώρα θα έπρεπε να γίνει, όπως το έκαναν και κάποιες χώρες, μια καταγραφή και του κοινωνικού και του οικονομικού προφίλ και από κει και πέρα μπορεί να υπάρχει μια ρύθμιση, η οποία να προτείνει κάτι τέτοιο, και αν κάποιος θέλει να τη χρησιμοποιήσει την χρησιμοποιεί, αν δεν θέλει δεν την χρησιμοποιεί.

 

While the capital controls and the corruption of his Government keep the serious foreign investors and the significant investment potential of the diaspora Greeks away, Mardas thinks that he can save Greeces economy with the help of "Refugee Investors".

 

Try to visualize that! Greek tax oficials walking through the camp at Idomeni compiling asset lists and Greek Bankers discussing "Investment opportunities" with the tent dwelers of Idomeni. This is sad yet so damn comical. I don't know if I should cry or laugh.

Those guys are hilarious.

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Guest FriendofGreece

Try to visualize that! Greek tax oficials walking through the camp at Idomeni compiling asset lists and Greek Bankers discussing "Investment opportunities" with the tent dwelers of Idomeni. This is sad yet so damn comical. I don't know if I should cry or laugh.

Those guys are hilarious.

 

I think it would be when the migrant goes to register for asylum that they are going to ask whether he has assets and would like to take asylum in Greece. It is better than other countries like Denmark (I think) that stripped the migrants of their riches to pay for their upkeep. However, I think the migrants in Greece are the later ones who are poor and uneducated, the rich and educated ones having gone in the first waves to the other EU countries already.

 

In Canada, some provinces offered the same thing to Hong Kong people who wanted to leave on the 1997 handover of Hong Kong by the British back to China. At that time, a minimum of $500,000 was asked for each person, and it had to be invested for 10 years in that province, without interest, generating so much employment, etc. So the offer from Greece is not unusual, although I think it is too late and will not generate much.

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Guest FriendofGreece

The Turks are coming!

 

http://www.newsweek.com/turkey-european-union-migrant-refugee-deal-441240

 

"For Ayla Agit, the deal signed in March between Europe and Turkey to stem the flow of migrants and refugees was a prayer answered. “Finally, we have a chance to get a new life in Germany!” says Agit, who was driven from her home this past October by fighting. The twist: Agit isn’t a Syrian refugee; she’s a Turkish citizen. Her hometown of Cizre was the scene of running street battles between armed Kurdish militants and the Turkish army last year that left close to 200 dead. Now she and thousands of other internally displaced Turkish Kurds are planning to join the exodus to Europe."

 

"But for the hundreds of thousands of Turkish citizens displaced by a growing civil war between Kurdish separatists and security forces in Turkey’s turbulent southeast, it’s a green light to a new life anywhere in Europe. “Before, we had no hope of getting a German visa,” says Agit, 43, who has been scraping out a living in Istanbul’s run-down Bayrampasa neighborhood as a cleaner in a sweatshop that makes fake designer shoes. “The [German visa office] asks you to prove your income with money in a bank account,” she says. Now she doesn’t need a visa. All Agit, a widow with five children, needs to get is the plane fare and a biometric Turkish passport. Once on EU soil, she and all Turkish Kurds like her who can prove political persecution or a threat to their lives if they return home are eligible to claim political asylum. Agit is likely to qualify, as her brother is in jail for membership in an illegal organization and police have raided her home multiple times. And thanks to a tourism industry depressed by a series of bombings in Ankara and Istanbul, Turkish charter airlines are offering one-way flights to Europe for as little as $55."

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I think it would be when the migrant goes to register for asylum that they are going to ask whether he has assets and would like to take asylum in Greece. It is better than other countries like Denmark (I think) that stripped the migrants of their riches to pay for their upkeep. However, I think the migrants in Greece are the later ones who are poor and uneducated, the rich and educated ones having gone in the first waves to the other EU countries already.

 

In Canada, some provinces offered the same thing to Hong Kong people who wanted to leave on the 1997 handover of Hong Kong by the British back to China. At that time, a minimum of $500,000 was asked for each person, and it had to be invested for 10 years in that province, without interest, generating so much employment, etc. So the offer from Greece is not unusual, although I think it is too late and will not generate much.

Yes. The Syrians who had assets took themselves and their assets out of Syria long time ago. The ones who camp at Idomeni are not potential "Investors" and stripping them of their last valubles they carry with them, as the Danes do, is just wrong.

But that's not why I think Mardas is a clown. Let me elaborate:

 

I'm not a refugee. I'm a full fledged Greek citizen who happens to live abroad.And I do have money. Lets say I decide to transfer 100.000 Euros to Greece today. Which I could do easily. What happens to the money? If I show up at the Greek Bank I transfer the money to tomorrow and try to withdraw it they'll only give me 10.000 in cash. Capital controll regulations state that even fresh transfers from abroad can not be withdrawn from the Greek banks beyond 10% of the total transfer.

 

So I automaticaly lose access to 90% of the initial amount. I can use that bound capital to pay obligations to the Greek state electronicaly and I can use it to electronicaly pay for goods and services I purchase from Greek vendors. Can I pay for goods and services I require from foreign vendors. Well, I can purchase goods and services for personal consumption from vendors abroad but that goes towards my weekly allovance of 420 Euro.

I can not spend more than 420 Euros a week in cash or through electronic payment to foreign vendors on personal needs or wants. No way no how.

 

Lets say I invest that money. If I find any local vendors who would accept electronic payment, needless to say that most prefer cash for obvious reasons, I can get started. But what if I need equipment, machinery, supplies from abroad. I have to file a foreign import request with my bank and they will submit it to a joint Ministry-of-Finance/Systemic-Banking-Sector committee for abroval. If, a week or two or three latter, the request is approved, I can go ahead and place my order to the vendor. If not, I have to go to some "Importer" who has the necessary connections to the committee to get his requests aproved right away. And he will, of course, charge me an arm and a leg for his services cause, in typical Greek fasion, even capital controls are a source of profit for the ones who are close to the "Crown". Lets say I got all that done and I have orders from abroad, since the Greek domestic market is more or less dead. What happens to my earnings? They get stuck again in the Greek banking system and I have very limitted access to them.

 

So why the hell should I send my money to Greece and not keep it here in the US where I can do with it as I please?

And that's why diapora Greeks or private foreign investors don't invest in Greece. Instead of addressing the road blocks to foreign investment Mardas has found a better solution. Lets go through the pockets of the beat up desperate people at Idomeni. That will fix the Greek economy.

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Greece is in a very difficult position. If there are no capital controls, the people would have withdrawn all their money and the banking system would have collapsed a long time ago. However, I think exceptions, to a certain extent, should be made for Greek and foreign investors and for businesses, as opposed to individuals, otherwise who would invest like you said.

 

The corruption has to stop too. Greece needs not only a competent government, but also a clean one, that will clean up corruption. The business procedures should be simplified too.

 

After 9 years of austerity, I wonder if there have been any improvements at all, with respect to ease of doing business, tackling corruption, etc., or the situation has worsened.

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FoG:

 

Greece is in a very difficult position. If there are no capital controls, the people would have withdrawn all their money and the banking system would have collapsed a long time ago. However, I think exceptions, to a certain extent, should be made for Greek and foreign investors and for businesses, as opposed to individuals, otherwise who would invest like you said.

There wouldn't be any capital controls if it weren't for the idiocy of the SYRIZA government. Tsipras campained with the promise that he will end austerity and even reverse the cuts in public sector wages and pensions RETROACTIVELY. People who had money in the Greek banks realized that this ment a dramatic increase in Government spending and since there was no money in the system their assets were in danger. So they did the reasonable thing and pulled their assets.

 

Once elected, to his own surprise, Tsipras realized that his voters now expect him to deliver. Knowing perfectly well that there is no way to finance all the crap he promised he set up a "Show" for internal consumption. So he and Varoufakis started show-boating at the negotiations with the lenders knowing perfectly well that there was ZERO wiggle room. Then they started talk about "Paralel Payment Systems", and taking direct controll of the Greek central bank.

 

And there was that idiotic referendum that was presented as a vote on Austerity while everybody knew that it is a vote on Greeces participation in the Euro. At the end he got the NO vote he campaigned for. While, in reality he hoped to get a YES vote so that he can sign an agreement with the lenders without loosing face in front of his voters. Well he got the NO vote and what does he do? He goes and signs a deal that was far worse than the initial proposal of the lenders. Because throughout all those months he would continue spending on unsustainable levels by plundering all domestic reserves and thereby increasing the cost to the economy.

 

Seeing all this people panicked and started withdrawing capital at unprecedented levels. At first those withdrawals were covered by the Emergency Liquidity Assistance of the European Central Bank running our tab at the ECB up from 48 Bil Euros prior to Syriza to 97 Bil Euros after 5 months into SYRIZA governance. At which point we reached the cap and the ECB put on the breaks. Ergo the Greek banks didn't have any liquidity to fullfill withdrawel requests.

 

The closure of the banks and the capital controls are to 100% the result of Tsiprase's and Varoufakis Idiocy. In less than five months their policy led to the flight of 50 bil Euros. Doubled our tab et ELA and wiped out all domestic reserves. The overall impact on the Greek economy is estimated to be anywhere from 70 to 120 bil Euro. So here is a Government that caused, in less than 6 months, damages that amount to somewhere between 30% and 60% of Greeces anual GDP. This is a MONUMENTAL failure.

 

Now the Capital Controls are here to stay. You can't lift capital controls without the trust of the people in the system. And you can't get the peoples trust without lifting the capital controls. We are in a catch 22 now. And all because of the show-boating of a vainglorious fool names Varoufakis and his "Koutoponiro" boss Alexi.

 

And you know whats even worse? We don't have any people in Greek politics who are much better than those two irresponsible assholes.

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And you know whats even worse? We don't have any people in Greek politics who are much better than those two irresponsible assholes.

 

This is the worst part. We're stuck with a bunch of idiots. Syriza won't last for much longer, but guess who's coming next...Mitsotakis' son. Nepotism is still alive and well in Greece.

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Guest FriendofGreece

Are the Greek elections coming soon? How is Mitsotakis Jr.?

 

In the meantime:

 

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2016/03/28/minister-of-state-nikos-pappas-foresees-explosion-in-investment-in-greece/

 

"British American Tobacco’s investment project will convert Piraeus into a major logistics center through which Cyprus, Malta and many countries in the Middle East and Africa will be provided with company products whose total values will exceed one billion euros, according to its CEO Gianpiero Pazzanese. 

 

Mr. Pazzanese said that British American Tobacco will invest 100 million euros in Greece within the next three years.

 

China Cosco’s financial officer also extended greetings to the conference, saying that British American Tobacco’s investment is a vote of confidence for Piraeus, but also underlined the need for less red tape on the part of the Greek bureaucracy."

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