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ajaxmonkey

America just got greater.

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BS

 

That stupid Talk of the "Robotized" Industry has been around since the 70's it wasn't true then and it isn't true now. Sure automation has an impact but manufacturing still remains labour intensive.

 

If one were to follow your argument then it is only a matter of time before the Chinese and Indian slave labourer goes extinct. And since the Robots who are going to replace them don't earn wages or purchase (neither Western nor Eastern) consumer goods the Wage Earner, and spender, has become a thing of the past all over the world. So whom will those robots be producing for? Whom will the drones deliver to? The self driving cars carry? Are you envisioning consumer robots too?

 

Is that the new "Tariff free World Economy" you dream of?

 

Get real.

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Yes, of course it's bad. The people spoke in Greece and in the UK too, and they messed up in both cases. Politicians have become "entertainers". The most successful politician/entertainer is the one who gets most of the voters of his party out to vote. That's all it takes to win an election. You don't need to have a realistic political platform, in fact you don't need a platform at all. As it was proved by Trump you don't even need to say anything of value, just say stupid things, lies, whatever comes in mind, and then the next day say the complete opposite. It still doesn't matter. As long as you get the sheep out in droves to vote you're still good.

 

It happened in Greece, it then happened in the UK, now it happened in the US too. This is not good news for democracy...

I understand your confusion.

 

"You don't have to say anything of VALUE"... but what exactly is a value? Is there such a thing as objective Values?

 

Well there isn't. Nothing has ANY value in NATURE. Value is a cognitive construct that exists only in the mind of the sentient being that does the evaluating. As such all values are totally subjective.

 

Someone may be "Saying Nothing of Value" according to your evaluation, which is based on what serves you best of course. What is of no value to you may be very valuable (beneficial) to somebody else. And who says that your interest is above his?

 

Democracy is meant to decide what is of Value to a society and what is not. The contest took place, according to the rules, and those who wanted it more won. Now they have a President who'll, hopefully, lead in accordance with the values he campaigned on. The end.

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Guest FriendofGreece

Robotization is real, it may take 15-20 years, but it is coming. 

 

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/544201/china-wants-to-replace-millions-of-workers-with-robots/

 

Even the Indians recognize the problem of robotization:

 

http://qz.com/771498/if-india-wants-to-become-a-superpower-it-has-to-stop-trying-to-become-the-next-china/

 

By the way, I don't dream of a tariff-free world economy the way you may mean it. I am just saying that if the elite gets richer because of free trade then tax them more on their profits, not less, no matter where those profits are earned. That way it would not make a difference whether they have the products being produced in the US or elsewhere. As long as it is a US corporation, tax it on US tax on its world profits.

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Robotization is real, it may take 15-20 years, but it is coming. 

 

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/544201/china-wants-to-replace-millions-of-workers-with-robots/

I'm doing, among other things, micro controller programming for robotics applications. Thanks for letting me know that robotics is real.

But people are real too. And it is their wants and needs that create an Economy, robots included. If an economy doesn't provide wages there cant be consumption, without consumption there is no need for production. An economy that does not provide Jobs and living wages is either going down or survives as a parasite. Tariffs are supposed to address the latter.

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I understand your confusion.

 

"You don't have to say anything of VALUE"... but what exactly is a value? Is there such a thing as objective Values?

 

Well there isn't. Nothing has ANY value in NATURE. Value is a cognitive construct that exists only in the mind of the sentient being that does the evaluating. As such all values are totally subjective.

 

Someone may be "Saying Nothing of Value" according to your evaluation, which is based on what serves you best of course. What is of no value to you may be very valuable (beneficial) to somebody else. And who says that your interest is above his?

 

Democracy is meant to decide what is of Value to a society and what is not. The contest took place, according to the rules, and those who wanted it more won. Now they have a President who'll, hopefully, lead in accordance with the values he campaigned on. The end.

 

That's a pretty silly argument. I won't go into a philosophical debate around what's objective and what's subjective, but I think we can all agree that someone saying in public that "he's so great that he can grab a woman by the pussy" is not a smart or decent thing to say. This is not subjective. This is something commonly accepted in our day and age as being a stupid remark.

 

Also blatantly lying and flip-flopping is not something subjective either. IN our day and age we have something called video and audio recording and one can easily go back in time and see or hear what Trump said about different subjects and pinpoint all his lies and fli-flopping throughout this election. Again, not subjective.

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Is it silly to say that values are constructs meant to serve the interests of those who do the evaluating?

 

You have no issue with slave wages in China and suicide nets on FoxCon factories.

And why should you? Cheap cellphones and Tablets are of value to you. And why should you share the concerns of blue collar workers in the US? You are not one of them. Penalising slave labour in China by imposing tariffs is not in your best interest. It may end up making things more expensive for you.

 

And of course you are all pro immigration. You are an immigrant after all. So are your values not self serving?

Nothing wrong with that. I'm the same way, in fact I share your values to a great extend but that doesn't prevent me from looking beyond my own situation and trying to understand other peoples perspectives.

 

So, Trump said "Pussy" while he was running his big mouth in front of a camera. So what? Bill Clinton was sticking cigars in Monica's pussy in the oval office and went on to bomb an Aspirin factory in Khartoum to distract from the stains he left on Monica's dress. No problem there right?

 

University of Berkley offers classes on Tupac's "Poetics". The guy who made a song about "the bitch" he rapped after he got convicted. No problem there either right? How could you criticise the "Strapped" Messenger of Love who has been elevated to a major role model to the well educated hard working afro-american youth? Especially after "their champion" lost this election to verbal pussy grabbing Trump and the ignorant hate filed white man.

 

And no. I'm not a defender of Trump or "The White Man". I'm neither white nor black nor brown. I'm an Anatolian with a sense for realities.

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FoG:

 

I am just saying that if the elite gets richer because of free trade then tax them more on their profits, not less, no matter where those profits are earned. That way it would not make a difference whether they have the products being produced in the US or elsewhere. As long as it is a US corporation, tax it on US tax on its world profits.

Don't blame everything on the elite. I'm looking at it from a Greek perspective and I see that India has tariffs on:

 

Olive oil - 45%

Nut and seed oils - 100%

Juice concentrates and non alcoholic beverages - 30%

Wine and alcoholic beverages - 100%

Mastix and other tree gums and resins - 45%

Pasta and Durum wheat products - 30%

Shoes and clothing - 15%

Construction steel and pipes - 15%

Aluminum products - 10%

Tobaco products - 30%

Spirits - 150%

Refined Sugar - 100%

 

(http://www.cbec.gov.in/htdocs-cbec/customs/cs-tariff2015-16/cst2015-16-idx)

 

Those are things Greece produces. So tell me again why would it be wrong for Greece to slap a 45% Import duty on all goods imported from India? Should I care more about India than about my own people?

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So, Trump said "Pussy" while he was running his big mouth in front of a camera. So what? Bill Clinton was sticking cigars in Monica's pussy in the oval office and went on to bomb an Aspirin factory in Khartoum to distract from the stains he left on Monica's dress. No problem there right?

 

When did I ever say that Clinton was a saint? Whatever he did though, he did it in the privacy of his house/office, or whatever, so it's none of my concern. Clinton never bragged publicly to a radio or TV station about all this, even though at the end of the day the sexual relationships of two consenting adults shouldn't be anyone's business.

 

On the other hand, we have Trump publicly saying socially unacceptable things like grabbing a woman by the pussy (without the woman's consent...) or screwing his daughter or whatever. These are socially unacceptable things to do (or even say that you'd like to do).

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Oh that PC of yours. Saying "socially unacceptable" things is bad BUT a president screwing his intern and then bombing a country and killing dozens to distract from the media uproar is fine. And if state department emails are found on the notebook of Abedins ex husband in the course of a teenage girl sexting investigation?

 

Who cares. Let Hilary be commander in chief while any member of the armed service would face court martial for circulating work related document outside the sanctioned channels.

 

Have you listened to some rap lyrics. Totally acceptable. No way this shit is meant to demean women. Aren't you a bit ... selective in your sensitivities?

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Are you comparing what you and I and a rap singer say about women - or whatever other issue -  with what the president of the US is saying about that same issue in public? Are you delusional?  :D

 

If you'd claim that you like to "grab women by the pussy" in this forum nobody would blink an eye. Sure, some people might get offended but nobody would really care. You are a nobody (as everyone else in this forum).

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you and I are not in the public I. Nevertheless, I avoid vulgarity and I dislike people who are vulgar in social settings, be it in bars or parties. That's my personal preference. I'm not the bad words police.

Yes I think that a person on the spot light should watch his mouth. But then again you compare a stupid episode with some rap stars who not only make a living with profanity but who also live it. And you can't deny that they have greater influence on young man than an old fart like Trump. So why does that not bother you?

 

And seriously, you compare that pussy talk with Bill killing 2 dozen people in Khartum to distract from his Monica gate with Trumps speech? And what about Bill Clintons many visits on Epsteins Lolita Island resort? No problems with that either?

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I don't compare anything. You're constantly comparing Trump with the rappers. I'm only talking about Trump in this topic. Whether rap singers or Bill Clinton or whomever else bother me as well as people and personalities that's a different discussion and has nothing to do with what we're discussing here.

 

In this topic we're talking about Trump, and the bottom line is that as the president of the US (and even as a candidate), he should be watching his mouth and his actions, but he doesn't. Yet, 50 million people voted for him and they ferociously support him. The funniest part is that the majority of these people are conservative who would go bananas if some liberal candidate would have said half of what Trump has said throughout this campaign. That I find sickening.

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So he is unacceptable. In which world? The one that exists in your head?

Cause the real world didn't come to an end after it saw

 

Ciciolina for 2 terms in the Italian national assembly

Berlusconis Bunga Bunga parties

Teenage hookers at Italian state events

Wieners sexting to teenage girls

Epsteins Lolita Island resort

Bills Monica gate

 

Am I comparing? Of course I am. Its called putting things in context. I agree when you mention the hypocrisy of his conservative followers though. Those people would be hyperventilating if it were someone else.

 

I'm rather open minded. I may not like vulgar talk but it doesn't bother me much either. And the fact that I could google nudes of Americas first lady now isn't a bad thing either.

 

Get real man.

The pope masturbates. Does that shock you?

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Guest FriendofGreece

Ajaxmonkey, in your example, Greece can of course slap tariffs on Indian imports, especially if Greece produces the same items. But if Greece does not produce the same items, they are just going to cost more to the Greek consumers. If it is an item of basic necessities, they would have to buy it, no way to escape the higher prices.

 

This morning, I scanned the title of an article saying that in advance of the proposed imposition of tariffs by Trump, some companies are already planning price increases - and that even before Trump enters the White House. (I can't find back the article.) The thing is that if an item is slapped a tariff, it is not only that item that increases in price but all the subsequent items of which that item is a component and other related items will increase in price. Because of those price increases, after they would want to increase transportation prices, energy prices, food prices and so on, and why, oh well you know, everything is expensive nowadays. I use only the example of an item to simplify what I want to show as snowballing prices. Well, everything goes up except wages that is. 

 

Slapping tariffs is one thing. Being willing to open factories, or whatever, to create jobs in the US is another thing. Trump proposes to reduce corporate tax rate to 15%, I think. Is that enough for US multinationals to bring back their operations - and the cash that is "stored" offshore - in the US? 

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There is nothing Greece needs from India. But even if this were the case, your argument collapses under the weight of its contradictions. India charges 15% import duties on shoes while a great part of Indians run around barefooted. So why don't you propose that India drops those tariffs to put shoes on the feet of her people? But you worry about Greek consumers. Right?

 

While charging 45% duties on Greek olive oil and 100% on Greek beet sugar India can afford nuclear weapons and a space program. The principled approach, for a country like Greece, would be to ban trade with India altogether. Or, at the very least, slap 100% import duties on Indian Cane sugar for example. Greeks who value the difference can pay the price for it and the others can use Greek beet sugar and support our domestic Industry. It really is that simple.

 

Well, there are of course EU regulations that grant Indian products preferential treatment but do those favour the Greek economy and Job market? The answer is NO. Those EU agreements favour the French, Brits and Germans of course. The EU big shots are selling guns, jet fighters, submarines and nuclear technology to India. And their corps invest into Indian slave labour. So what if Indian Imports destroy jobs in the French textile industry? Indian arms purchases create twice as many and way better paying jobs at Dasault and Thales.

 

So one has to question the EU and the one size fits all approach to International trade agreements. What is good for the EU is decided by the big nations within it. So in essence the EU is nothing more than French or German national ambition clad in internationalist garb. It gains the Germans a huge trade surplus while it bankrupts many of the smaller countries.

 

We, Greeks, have every reason to follow Trumps example and "Take our Country Back". Meaning: We need a National Trade policy that is based on reciprocity and benefits our people.

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Guest FriendofGreece

What contradictions?

 

I was actually curious why India has a 15% tariff on shoes. I thought maybe it was because India produces some shoes. I can't propose anything for India to drop or to add tariffs, I don't really know what its industries are nor other factors that the Indian government took into consideration in establishing those tariffs. I know they produce textile products and kitchenware, electronics, and what else? In India's case, whether there are tariffs or not, most of the Indians are simply too poor to afford much, not even domestic products. And yes, I don't care about Indians, I let that to the Indian government.  A government that lets its people starve while piling up on nuclear weapons and having a space program so that it can pride itself to be a hegemon and bully its neighbours is living in a bubble. By the way, India just signed on an agreement to buy high speed trains from Japan, go figure. Each month, there is one million of youth joining the labour market and there are no jobs for them. You can just imagine the plethora of problems if India does not succeed in creating manufacturing jobs soon. 

 

Well, I have been a proponent of Greece leaving the EU for a very long time because the EU is for the benefit of Germany, France and the UK (the triumvirat as I call them). I have said in the past that the poor and small countries in the EU are there to replace the previous colonies those rich countries had, at least in the case of France, the UK (and the Netherlands). I don't know if Germany had colonies.

 

In my opinion, Greece needs trade, investments (domestic and foreign), enterprises (start-ups, innovation, etc.). Trade is only one aspect. It goes without saying that when negotiating deals, both sides try to get the best deals they can for their side. Hopefully, the Greek government can get deals that are beneficial to the Greek people. In considering how to make beneficial and fair deals, maybe tariffs are only one aspect to consider. There may be other factors in trade deals to consider, I don't know what, I have never read a trade deal.  

 

Nowadays, we have more and more multi-country trade deals. How can the interests of all those countries be taken into account, where different countries have different levels of development? Would the small and poor countries regret later to sign on to the deals, who can foresee the future? Right now, it is the US, the one who advanced the idea of the TPP being a trade deal with Pacific countries except China, which abandoned it. Why start it and abandon it after the others agreed to it? Mindboggling.  :wacko:

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As you said, different countries have different levels of economic and societal development and different type of resources. That's why bilateral trade agreements between Nations make sense and super national One Size Fits All treaties which are formulated by the Elites do not.

And I only mention India because it is such a huge country with an immense potential. It may be a mess but there are worst offenders than India. Bangladesh for example or the Ukraine for example where, after the collapse of the Hryvia, the minimum wage stands at 17 cents an hour. As opposed to India with 31 cents/hour.

 

And Ukraine is a country in Europe and almost everyone in their Government is a Billionaire. Same thing with EU associated Georgia where the minimum wage stands at whopping 5 cents/hour. So how the hell is the Greek wheat farmer going to compete with Ukrainian wheat or Georgian fruit growers? The produce of the latter is bought up by Turkish merchants and a good part of it is dumped on the Greek Market where it pushes the Greek growers out of business.

 

So we can either lower our labour cost to Ukrainian/Georgian/Bangladeshi levels OR we just ignore EU negotiated Trade agreements and impose Tariffs against countries who exploit their workforce to an extend that borders on slavery. The mantra that Tariffs are always bad doesn't hold up to closer examination.

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Guest FriendofGreece

Tariffs have always existed, but in a more focused context on specific items, for example, if there is suspicion of dumping, or the exporting government subsidies on certain industries, etc.

 

I think my discussion on tariffs arises more in the context of Trump's proposal to impose tariffs across the board on Chinese and Mexican goods. It is a significant action that I am not sure will create jobs in the US, at least not to the large scale imagined by Trump. I read in an article that for an iPhone that sells $700, the value added by China is only $10. The rest of the value added comes from design in the US and other component parts from other countries. In China, I believe,  it is only labour as the parts are imported by China and assembled there. Ajaxmonkey, I believe you know better than me about these things. Will Apple move the assembly to the US while there are cheaper labour places than China? Tim Cooke already said no. 

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I don't care much about Trump. At the end he is another billionaire who will do whats best for billionaires. Nevertheless, he put Tariffs back on the table and that's worth something.

 

As you said, the labour cost that goes into an 700 USD iPhone is even way less than 10 bucks. And NO Apple will not move assembly to the US. Would be bad for the share holder value.

 

But if a company like Apple refuses to pay fair labour wages despite their sky high profit margins where the hell are fair wages supposed to come from?

 

Ireland found a revenue stream, in violation of EU regulations, it provides a tax heaven for Apple to park capital and avoid 18 bil in taxes.

And it may work out, in the short run, for a small country like Ireland. But this is not the way to go in my opinion. This globalisation bullshit needs to be re-evaluated.

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The TPP story is just hilarious. There is a bunch of countries, they line up behind America, building a united front against the Chinese Threat and then... Each and everyone of those countries goes and signs bilateral trade agreements with China. Including the US.

 

And now Trump says he'll scrap it. The Chinese are laughing their asses off.

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Guest FriendofGreece

The workers are always the losers. Because of the huge disparity in incomes in China, some Chinese people wish a return to Mao's communist times (before the Cultural Revolution) where at least everyone was poor. 

 

As I mentioned before, maybe free trade per se is not the culprit, but the elite that takes advantage of free trade to profit from the workers who work at slaves' salaries and from workers whom they put on unemployment. We look around and around, but the ones laughing all the way to the bank are the elites and nothing is being done to redistribute the wealth more equally and fairly. 

 

With the TPP being scrapped, China is promoting the multi-country AIIB, which is gaining more hold, at the APEC meeting in Peru this week. China has been inviting the US to join the AIIB from the beginning, unlike the US which excluded China from joining the TPP. Apparently, there are people in the US now advising Obama/Trump to join the AIIB ... and the New Silk Road.

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Free Trade as IT IS NOW is to blame because this kind of Free Trade was created by the elites and serves the elites. I'm not against Trade. To the contrary. The world needs more FAIR TRADE and everyone needs to remember that Economy is not an end in itself but the means to make peoples lives better everywhere.

 

If that doesn't happen, the world is fucked. Resources plundered, biodiversity gone, population explosion in the least developed countries. Poverty, ignorance, religious fanatism everywhere. We are on the way to the Dark ages. A few weeks ago I was browsing news sites and read the headlines:

 

Leprosy making a comeback

Girl got burned alive cause she didn't follow Islamic dresscode.

Two dozen unbelievers beheaded near Mossul.

 

Those news could have come straight from the darkest of the dark ages. Frankly, I think we are fucked no matter what. Our species doesn't have what it takes to pass the test of time.

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Guest eyoismos

just to put some matters into perspective ....

 

trumppeople.jpg

 

 

and yes , i know it is false, but it sounds awfully  close to the truth , both in terms of what he might have said, and in terms of the thinking of many that voted for him

 

was he the better choice of the two,, probably ... for america that is

where there better choices ... hell yeah .... but how many of them have the balls, let aloe the intelligence and capabilities,  to play the dirty politics game?

very few if any i would think

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