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Would you support a return to the Megali Idea as well as a more nationalistic Greece?

Megali Idea Greater Greece

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#101 admin

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 04:29 PM

It's not a bad thing to love your motherland and your culture.

 

It becomes a bad thing when this love becomes a "national pride" and the absurd belief that you (and your people) are better than others because your ancestors were born into a specific culture or land. Then you become easy prey to the nationalist zealots who preach exceptionalism and intolerance.

 

All it takes to get out of this mindset is to travel a lot, possibly live in a couple of different countries and experience a few different cultures etc. If you've lived in a few different countries (and both ajax and I have done that) and if you also travel a lot you'll soon realize that at their core most people (from any culture) are the same, or at least very very similar. There are nice people and there are jerks wherever you go, no matter if they're Greeks or Turks or Italians or Brits or Indians by nationality.



#102 ajaxmonkey

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 05:09 PM

Love is an animal instinct my friend. You don't "Love" abstract things such as country, culture, nation. What you love are People. Your parents, grandparents, siblings, cousins, friends. The people you grew up with, the people you cried, laughed, horsed around with. The people you share memories and experiences with. You love your country by proxy in the sense that it is the stage were those things happened. And you recognize it as your country to the extend it contains cues to things you experienced.

Which brings me to the paradox of the immigrant: The longing for something that is no more. I remember my fathers longing for the Greece of his childhood and his disappointment every time we actually went to Greece and he realized that with every passing year the Greece he kept in his heart was waning. And I see myself being the same way as good old dad.

That said, I love my people, of course. I'm an animal and can't help but follow animal instinct. I'm attached to my kin, my blood. I don't need to put a label on it and call it Greek. I would have the same attachment if it were Turkish, Albanian or Zulu. That's in my heart. What's in my mind is a different story. Do I LIKE Greece, Greek attitudes, politics and so forth? Well I do not. Not at all. In the same way I can still LOVE, care for, acknowledge a Brother and yet not LIKE anything about him. Meaning that yes I love Greece but I don't like anything about the way it is. And Vague "Patriotism" doesn't change anything for the better. To the contrary, it perpetuates our misery. What is needed are concrete proposals, small steps that benefit our people and gradually improve our standing. Grand pipe dreams won't do that.

#103 admin

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 05:36 PM

Of course you can love abstract things. We fell in love with "ideas" all the time. I do at least  :)

 

On the other hand, your "country" is the land you grew up in. It's not something abstract. For those of us who have left that land behind it becomes something "idealized" over time, that's true, but it's still something tangible. It's still there, a bit different than what one may remember, but it's still there. Also, when I'm talking about "culture" I'm not referring to "patriotism", which can mean different things to different people. I'm talking about a shared identity, a shared language, a shared way of life.

 

Sure, there are many things to dislike about Greek politics or attitudes or whatever else, but there's some much more to like. 



#104 ajaxmonkey

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 05:58 PM

Of course you can love abstract things. We fell in love with "ideas" all the time. I do at least  :)
 
On the other hand, your "country" is the land you grew up in. It's not something abstract. For those of us who have left that land behind it becomes something "idealized" over time, that's true, but it's still something tangible. It's still there, a bit different than what one may remember, but it's still there. Also, when I'm talking about "culture" I'm not referring to "patriotism", which can mean different things to different people. I'm talking about a shared identity, a shared language, a shared way of life.
 
Sure, there are many things to dislike about Greek politics or attitudes or whatever else, but there's some much more to like.


People love puppies, pepsi, their mistress, pies, souvlaki, God, country and what not. I try to adhere to the actual meaning of the word. Anyhow, since you say there is so much more to like about "Greece" would you mind to name a few examples? I ask because I really come up empty. If I exclude a few beaches or mountains, which I would like no matter what sovereignty they were under, and some people who are close to me, there is nothing left to like.

#105 admin

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 07:38 PM

The beaches and mountains are part of the land, aren't they? And the people close to you are people who were raised there. They were raised in the Greek culture.

 

In any case, each one of us is different and sees/experiences things in different ways. To me Greece is "home".  When the plane lands on Greek soil I feel like I'm back home. When I walk the streets of my old neighborhood or when I meet for a coffee with old friends it feels like home to me. No other place in the world feels the same way.

 

Note that I'm not the kind of "immigrant" who's living a Greek life outside Greece. I have no immediate family, cousins, uncles/aunts where I live. My wife is not Greek, most of my friends are not Greeks, I'm not religious so I don't go to the Greek church or local Greek communities.



#106 ajaxmonkey

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 08:01 PM

The beaches and the mountains are features of the planet. Those were there before Greece and will be there after even the memory of Greece has gone. But at the end it comes down to People. That's what makes you feel at home. Not the coffee you drink, not the shop you drink it at, not the street this shop is on. You feel at home because you are drinking the coffee surrounded by people who are close to you. Lets say 20 years from now you go to Athens and none of those people are there anymore. Would you still feel at home? Even if the streets and the coffee remain the same you would be a stranger in a strange land.

The culture of those people doesn't matter either. In fact, you can like them because you are willing to overlook the aspects of their conditioning that run contrary to your own preferences. And you are able to do that because you are bound by shared memories.

#107 cyprusellas

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 08:41 PM

Patriotism is for idiots and let me explain why:

There are three abortions, paid for by the public health care system, for each live birth in Greece.Those numbers where from the late 90's way before the economic crisis.
I don't deny women their right to choose. I only mention this because, in the age of contraceptives, this becomes an indicator for how stupid and irresponsible Greeks actually are. Are the Turks to blame for the fact that we Greeks are dying off at a, rapidly accelerating, rate of 30.000 a year?

My mother pays for our house an amount close to 4 times the value of the Electricity we actually use. Despite of that the Greek Electricity company is on the verge of bankruptcy. They are unable to repay 200 mil in loans while they are being owed 2.8 bil by their 1.5 mil customers who just refuse to pay.
Are the Turks to blame? NO. Tsipras wanted to get the "Δεν πληρώνω" vote so he enacted a law that forces ΔΕΗ to provide electricity to over a million people who haven't paid in years.

The Greek banks are cash strapped even though they are owed 60 bil by borrowers who just refuse to pay even a symbolic amount. Once again thanks to Syriza enacting laws to satisfy the "Δεν πληρώνω" camp. Who is to blame for that? The Turks?

Once you get involved with Greek reality you will understand that patriotism is for the Μαλάκες. I at least feel like one for paying my obligations in Greece in full and on time while my neighbors bought their "Μεζονέτα" with a loan they now refuse to repay. As a result of their refusal a quarter mil of my money is trapped in a Greek bank and I can not transfer it out even though I could use it to expand my business right now. So I'm sorry but I realy don't care about the Turks "violating" some airspace Greece claims as her own. A claim that no one in the world recognizes btw.

Patriotism is of course a great tool for politicians. Beating the patriotic drum distracts from their failures and allows the profiteers to continue to profit while the Μαλάκες look up to the clouds for those Turkish jet fighters and other threats to the motherland

I am involved in Greek reality hence why im patriotic and those who aren't and dont give a crap about of roots are malakes and might iswell change citizenship 



#108 admin

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 04:36 PM

The beaches and the mountains are features of the planet. Those were there before Greece and will be there after even the memory of Greece has gone. But at the end it comes down to People. That's what makes you feel at home. Not the coffee you drink, not the shop you drink it at, not the street this shop is on. You feel at home because you are drinking the coffee surrounded by people who are close to you. Lets say 20 years from now you go to Athens and none of those people are there anymore. Would you still feel at home? Even if the streets and the coffee remain the same you would be a stranger in a strange land.

The culture of those people doesn't matter either. In fact, you can like them because you are willing to overlook the aspects of their conditioning that run contrary to your own preferences. And you are able to do that because you are bound by shared memories.

 

That's not true at all, because anywhere I go in Greece I feel at home. If it were the way you describe then I'd only feel at home in my hometown and my neighborhood. But that's not the case.

 

Also, if it was all about the people then I'd also feel at home where I live now (and I've lived in Canada for 20 years!).

 

The memories of our early years are clearly stronger than whatever we do later in life. I've had a good life so far, I've studied, worked and lived in some great places, Greece, UK, Canada, US and met great people during this time. Yet, despite all the good times and good memories when it comes to reminiscing it's always memories of my childhood and teenage years in Greece. Sure, people and old friends are a big part of those great memories, but it's also the places, the smells, the things, the landmarks. It's the whole package. Not just the people.



#109 ajaxmonkey

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 04:56 PM

that's all good and dandy but at the end of the day you can't raise kids on patriotism. You need food, shoes, clothes, diapers, school supplies and other things to do that. Patriotism can't buy you any of that, Euros do.
Wanna stay warm in winter? Need heating diesel? How many litters of that can a ton of patriotism buy you?
Need jet fuel to protect that airspace of yours from Turkish violators? Can't buy that on patriotism either.
Need some diesel to march those tanks all the way to the Αγία Σοφία? Try buying it with patriotism.

So how does your sort of "Patriotic" involvement help Greece?
Did you invest in Greece?
Do you own Greek shares?
Do you maintain accounts in Greek banks?
Do you employ Greeks in any Greek ventures you own?
Do you pay employer contributions to the National Health insurance system and pension funds for those Greeks you employ?

You are talking to a guy who does all of the above. And you are suggesting I should change citizenship. And then what?
Well, a lot of Greeks who were truly involved in Greece have done exactly that. They moved their ventures and money and themselves, with all their skills and potential, abroad. Where does that leave Greece?

If you were truly involved in Greek reality you would know that by now everybody with a brain there has fully realized that Patriotism doesn't pay the bills. The young and skilled ones are looking for a way out. Whatever future Greece may have, it can only emerge from the ashes of what Greece is now. The Greece of the past, with its patriotic and other delusions will not survive.

#110 ajaxmonkey

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 05:09 PM

That's not true at all, because anywhere I go in Greece I feel at home. If it were the way you describe then I'd only feel at home in my hometown and my neighborhood. But that's not the case.
 
Also, if it was all about the people then I'd also feel at home where I live now (and I've lived in Canada for 20 years!).
 
The memories of our early years are clearly stronger than whatever we do later in life. I've had a good life so far, I've studied, worked and lived in some great places, Greece, UK, Canada, US and met great people during this time. Yet, despite all the good times and good memories when it comes to reminiscing it's always memories of my childhood and teenage years in Greece. Sure, people and old friends are a big part of those great memories, but it's also the places, the smells, the things, the landmarks. It's the whole package. Not just the people.


I take your abstract notion of "Home" and contrast it with real experience:

I inherited a property in Thessaloniki. Back when my dad bought it there were dozens of relatives of ours who owned properties in the same neighborhood. They are all gone now, moved abroad or died off. Not only that, but I don't even hear a familiar language in the neighbourhood. Most people who live there now speak Russian and came from Kazakhstan. I call it the far western suburbs of Astana. Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against those people, but at the end of the day they are not my people and that neighborhood has gotten as far away from home as it can get. The concrete of the building is still the same of course but that is not the stuff that makes it "Home".

#111 admin

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 06:21 PM

This is true, Greece has changed (a lot) over the past 20-25 years. I've been lucky as my neighborhood has stayed relatively unchanged during this time. Whenever I go back I still see familiar places and (some) familiar faces. Even though some people are older and look different, or other people have died off, or there are newcomers etc. my neighborhood is still a familiar place to me.

 

Saying this, I'm not getting this feeling of "being at home" only when I visit my old neighborhood. I also get it when I visit some island or any other place in Greece, especially places I had visited before as a kid or teenager. To me the minute I step on Greek soil it feels like I'm home again.

 

Granted of course that I don't have to deal with the Greek bureaucracy very much. I usually visit as a tourist. I stay for a month or so and then I take off. Maybe if I'd have to deal with all the shit you have to deal with I wouldn't be seeing Greece as such a great place to visit anymore.  :)



#112 ajaxmonkey

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 07:18 PM

This is true, Greece has changed (a lot) over the past 20-25 years. I've been lucky as my neighborhood has stayed relatively unchanged during this time. Whenever I go back I still see familiar places and (some) familiar faces. Even though some people are older and look different, or other people have died off, or there are newcomers etc. my neighborhood is still a familiar place to me.
 
Saying this, I'm not getting this feeling of "being at home" only when I visit my old neighborhood. I also get it when I visit some island or any other place in Greece, especially places I had visited before as a kid or teenager. To me the minute I step on Greek soil it feels like I'm home again.
 
Granted of course that I don't have to deal with the Greek bureaucracy very much. I usually visit as a tourist. I stay for a month or so and then I take off. Maybe if I'd have to deal with all the shit you have to deal with I wouldn't be seeing Greece as such a great place to visit anymore.  :)


Don't get me wrong. Greece is still a great place to visit it just isn't a great place to work and make a living in, to invest yourself in. Unfortunately a country can only survive to the extend people are willing to dedicate, to invest themselves in it. And it is the sum of all that personal dedication and all those personal investments that makes a country thrive. Without that it dies. A "Home" is a fragile thing. Without the familiar people to animate it, it is no more than a building, an empty shell.

#113 ajaxmonkey

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Posted 12 April 2017 - 04:11 PM

And once again, Greece in all her glory:


Να απαρνηθεί το «δαιμονιώδες Ισλάμ» και να βαπτισθεί χριστιανός – με ανάδοχο τον Βλάντιμιρ Πούτιν - καλεί τον πρόεδρος της Τουρκίας Ταγίπ Ερντογάν ο Μητροπολίτης Πειραιώς Σεραφείμ με 37σελιδη επιστολή που αποκάλυψε ο ιστότοπος romfea.gr.

Μεταξύ άλλων ο Μητροπολίτης Σεραφείμ αναφέρει:

«Σᾶς προτείνουμε μάλιστα, Ἐξοχώτατε, νά ζητήσετε ἀπό τόν σημερινό σύμμαχό Σας καί Πρόεδρο τῆς Ρωσίας κ. Βλαντιμίρ Πούτιν νά γίνει ἀνάδοχος Σας καί ἡ βάπτισή Σας νά πραγματοποιηθεῖ στό ἱστορικό Φανάρι ἀπό τόν Παναγιώτατο Οἰκουμενικό Πατριάρχη κ.κ. Βαρθολομαῖο»

«Σᾶς προτρέπουμε καί Σᾶς συμβουλεύουμε νά σπεύσετε νά ἔλθετε στούς κόλπους τῆς Ὀρθοδόξου Ἐκκλησίας, προτοῦ ἔλθει τό τέλος τῆς ἐπιγείου ζωῆς Σας. Ὁ Ἅγιος Τριαδικός Θεός Σᾶς δέχεται μέ ἀνοικτές ἀγκάλες! Χαρά θά γίνει καί στή γῆ ἀπό τούς Ὀρθοδόξους, χαρά θά γίνει καί στούς Οὐρανούς ἀπό τούς Ἀγγέλους γιά τήν εἴσοδό Σας στήν μοναδική καί ἀληθινή Ἐκκλησία! Δράμετε καί προφθάστε νά εἰσέλθετε στόν θεῖο νυμφῶνα πρίν κλείσει ἡ θύρα καί στερηθεῖτε τοῦ ἐνδύματος τῆς ἀφθαρσίας.

Σέ ἀντίθετη περίπτωση, δυστυχῶς, θά καταταγεῖτε Ἐσεῖς, ἡ οἰκογένειά Σας καί ὁ λαός Σας στόν ἴδιο χῶρο, ὅπου βρίσκονται ὁ Ἀλλάχ, ὁ Μωάμεθ καί οἱ ἀκόλουθοί τους, δηλ. στόν τόπο τῆς βασάνου, τῆς αἰωνίου καί ἀτελευτήτου κολάσεως.

Εὐχόμαστε ἡ ἄκτιστος Θεία Χάρις τοῦ Παναγίου Πνεύματος νά φωτίσει τόν νοῦ Σας, νά Σᾶς ἐνισχύσει καί νά Σᾶς ἐνδυναμώσει, γιά νά ἀποτινάξετε καί νά ἀποσκορακίσετε τόν ὕπνο τῆς πλάνης καί τῆς ραθυμίας καί νά προσέλθετε στίς ἀγκάλες τῆς Ὀρθοδόξου Ἐκκλησίας».

http://www.kathimeri...doxo-ton-poytin




As if we didn't have more pressing issues to deal with. Those fuckers in black make me wanna puke.

#114 admin

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Posted 12 April 2017 - 06:10 PM

:lol:

Αν δε το διαβαζα στην Καθημερινη δε θα πιστευα οτι ειναι αληθινο.



#115 ajaxmonkey

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Posted 12 April 2017 - 06:41 PM

He must have a lot of free time on his hands. He wrote a 37 page letter!
I'm loosing hope when I see how much power and influence those scoundrels wield in Greece.

#116 ajaxmonkey

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 05:00 PM

Another sample of Greek insanity. This time from Cyprus:


Η αναπληρώτρια διευθύντρια των Ιατρικών Υπηρεσιών, Ελισάβετ Κωνσταντίνου, ανέφερε στην κοινοβουλευτική επιτροπή Υγείας, ότι τα στοιχεία του 2014-2015 δείχνουν ότι οι γεννήσεις με καισαρική τομή στην Κύπρο ανέρχονται σε ποσοστό 56, 9% και με φυσιολογικό τοκετό στο 43,1%.

Ο ιδιωτικός τομέας καταγράφει ποσοστό 61% στις καισαρικές τομές και ο δημόσιος τομέας φθάνει το 39%.

Ο διευθυντής της Γυναικολογικής Κλινικής του Μακάρειου Νοσοκομείου, Αγαθοκλής Χριστοφίδης, ανέφερε ότι τα τελευταία χρόνια άλλαξε η συμπεριφορά των Κυπρίων γυναικών, τις οποίες χαρακτήρισε ως «ανώριμες» και «απαιτητικές», σημειώνοντας ότι λένε στους γιατρούς τους: «Θέλω το μωρό μου να γεννηθεί συγκεκριμένη ημερομηνία για να είναι στο συγκεκριμένο ζώδιο».



http://www.kathimeri...in-epitr-ygeias

#117 admin

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 04:35 PM

:D που τα βρισκεις αυτα? Ψαχνεις για παραξενα νεα?



#118 palikari

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Posted 30 August 2017 - 06:52 AM

Would you as a Native Greek or Greek-American (or any nationality) support the idea of the Megali Idea and conquer what was historically Ancient Greek land. For example retaking Constantinople and Western Turkey and reclaiming the rest of Cyprus. Would you also support the rebuilding of Greek infrastructure and Ancient Monuments, such as the the Colossus of Rhodes, Parthenon, and Statue of Zeus to instill a greater sense of nationality in Greece. My third question is whether or not you would support the reclaiming of our own history from the Former Yugoslavic Republic of Macedonia, who shamelessly stole Alexander The Great as their own and built monuments to him and his father in their Skopje. As a Greek-American I'm fully behind these ideas and believe we should carry them out and restore Greece as a dominant world nation once we fix our economy, by leaving the European Union and bringing back the Greek Drachma. We were once the pinnacle of human civilization and our day will come again, I'm sure of it. However I doubt any of this can be carried out under our current corrupt government and I would suggest a revolution and model the constitution off of America which I believe is one of the best written governments to date. i'm curious if other Greeks agree with any of this and believe in it like I do. America got blessed with Donald Trump, it's time Greece had hers.

 

I would like to see a lot of this happen but this is a pipe dream.







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