When someone emigrates to (Canada, the U.S., Australia) they seemingly have a whole world of opportunities available to them. They can start a business, raise a family, and even become Canadian/American/Australian Citizens…This making us Greek Canadian, Greek American or Greek Australian. Since these countries are not based on any one culture or genetic ancestry, it is easy to just “be” Canadian/American/Australian, if you want to be.
Yet Greece has recently become a country that has taken in a large number of immigrants, especially from African and Middle Eastern countries, but the cultural identity hasn’t changed. You are what you are in Greece, and even second and third generation children of immigrants don’t seem to be able to call themselves Greek in the same way they’d be able to be Canadian/American/Australian.
This is a question to all the Greek Immigrants - So what does being Greek mean to you?
Well, Greece is a country that was not based in immigration as was Canada, US and Australia. So the ethnic feeling of being Greek is still strong.
I believe that over the years, if immigration continues at the same pace, then third or fourth generation Chinese people born in Greece will consider themselves Greeks, and Greeks will see them as Greeks as well.
The "do you feel Greek" question is very hard to answer, even for people born in Greece like myself. Do I feel Greek right now as I'm sitting in my office, somehwere in Canada, in front of my computer screen? I sure do...but when I visit Greece people can tell that I'm "xenos" even though I speak Greek fluently (and correctly..., I know more than most people about Greek history, mythology and culture.
As years go passing by I, myself, start getting this feeling that I somehow don't belong anywhere anymore. I'm Greek, but I'm not the same as the Greeks living in Greece right now, and I'm Canadian, but I'm not the same as the Canadians living in Canada right now. I like seeing myself as a citizen of the world.
My travelling and living abroad for so many years have made me appreciate the diversity of our world.
What s this that makes us Greeks so special? Are we better than Italians, or Spanish, or Brazilians or Chinese etc.?
I do feel proud of my heritage, but I see us as a part of a beautiful mosaic of cultures. We're not any better or worse than any other culture. We're just who we are. Our ancestors were lucky to live in an area where they had the chance to prosper and create a unique culture. This culture evolved to become the basis of western civilization as we know it today. Of course this is a reason of great pride for all of us today, but then we have to move forward.
As Greeks in the new millenium what can we offer to the rest of the world? What can we do to make this world a better place? And what do we have to offer to ourselves, to our kids, and to our own culture?
Quoted from admin, posted October 11th, 2007, 9:47am at here
As years go passing by I, myself, start getting this feeling that I somehow don't belong anywhere anymore. I'm Greek, but I'm not the same as the Greeks living in Greece right now, and I'm Canadian, but I'm not the same as the Canadians living in Canada right now.
That was the point I wanted to get to...If we feel like we dont belong anywhere anymore, how will this affect our children? iF we (the people born in Greece) feel like xenoi, it scares me to think of our childrens future... How do we hold on to what is rightfully ours? Is dual citizenship the answer?
Dual citizenship is a way to keep a false hope that one day you may return to your ancestral lands. I am a dual citizen only for the hope that one day I may excercise my right to live in Greece again.
My kids also have dual citizenships. Will they ever want to move back and live in Greece? Very unlikely, and I'd probably advise them against it!
Being Greek though means much more than living in Greece, or hanging out with other Greeks.
Gender: Male Location: Devil's Mother, Left Posts: 2,524
Reputation:75.00%
Quoted from admin, posted October 12th, 2007, 8:31am at here
Were you born in Greece as well???
Dual citizenship is a way to keep a false hope that one day you may return to your ancestral lands. I am a dual citizen only for the hope that one day I may excercise my right to live in Greece again.
My kids also have dual citizenships. Will they ever want to move back and live in Greece? Very unlikely, and I'd probably advise them against it!
Being Greek though means much more than living in Greece, or hanging out with other Greeks.
And why not may I ask? I mean why would you advise against it. (not that I suggest you should do the opposite either).
There is this wonderful story/fact, that I came across, though the details are fuzzy, but the moral is there.
There is this highly respected Greek surgeon from the States, who decided to go back to Greece to make a difference. He went to Athens to a respective hospital or other and applied for a job. Now the law of that particular institution was that all the faculties of the mdial profession represented there MUST approve of him. Eeverybody said yes. Everybody, that is, except the fott doctors, as the story goes, (read aftoi oi xenoi tha mas poune ti tha kanoume??. The man was, to say the least very disappointed. But did he say "F Greece, I'm off" ? Well, yeah to the first part. He went to thessaloniki, joint the university hospital there, and changed it around to such an extent, that it is now held in very high esteem.
The moral here is ....well.... F those that look at you as a xeno. I'm greek too and I will make a difference, you like it or not. And if you don't well F off
You see, it is those who wish or want not only to retain their heritage, but act on it too. It is people like that surgeon that makes a difference. This however is not a criticism on those who choose to wait and see, as in dual citizenship. Far from the truth. But rather a ....damn, what would be the right word for it.....maybe a gloriication of those who act on their convictions. And lets face it. They are very few and far between
The fact that we chose to leave Greece and live abroad shows that at some point in our lives we decided that Greece has nothing to offer us anymore, or we felt dissapointed that things don't "work" very well in Greece.
The story of the doctor you mention is admirable, but there are really very few "succesful" Greeks who would return to Greece to make a living for several reasons. From the "standard of living" argument (for most of us), to the limited research funding argument (for researchers and scientists) etc.
Unfortunately, other than plenty of sun and nice weather Greece has very little else to offer. For us, first generation Greeks, Greece is a place we idealized after we left. It's like the "promised land" of the Jews. Only when we go back we discover that the "promised land" is really a desert that has little to offer.
Quoted from admin, posted October 12th, 2007, 8:31am at here
Were you born in Greece as well???
Yes, i was born in Greece, spend the first few years of my life there, (my father had family here in Australia, thats why we returned here for this so called "better way of life"
My concern is for the children i will have, i dont want them to be seen as Australian, thats my biggest fear ( however im considering flying over and giving birth there lol)
will dual citizenship ever be denied to second and third generaion Greeks?
Gender: Male Location: Devil's Mother, Left Posts: 2,524
Reputation:75.00%
Quoted from admin, posted October 12th, 2007, 11:32am at here
The fact that we chose to leave Greece and live abroad shows that at some point in our lives we decided that Greece has nothing to offer us anymore, or we felt dissapointed that things don't "work" very well in Greece.
The story of the doctor you mention is admirable, but there are really very few "succesful" Greeks who would return to Greece to make a living for several reasons. From the "standard of living" argument (for most of us), to the limited research funding argument (for researchers and scientists) etc.
Unfortunately, other than plenty of sun and nice weather Greece has very little else to offer. For us, first generation Greeks, Greece is a place we idealized after we left. It's like the "promised land" of the Jews. Only when we go back we discover that the "promised land" is really a desert that has little to offer.
In some ways I agree with you, and in some ways I don't, but you left one question unanswered, ie you said "My kids also have dual citizenships. Will they ever want to move back and live in Greece? Very unlikely, and I'd probably advise them against it!" Why would you advise against it? Surely it would be appropriate for them to decide and you aught to give them the pro's and cons to guide them? Your response seems to imply (to your kids) in a predetermined way, it is not cool to be Greek, though we all very well know that you as a person is very pro Greek. (a question of mixed messages perhaps).Just so their is no misunderstanding, I'm questioning the "impression" you might be giving to your kids - not necessarily directed at you, but an open question to all those immigrant greeks out there, myself included.
And as for your comments about the greek doctor, yes its truly admirable, but I raise a question, concerning your perception or definition of "successful greek". I feel there are various levels of success, and, yes, in financial terms, maybe, [u]maybe{/u], you are right, but then..... well its an open question for debate
I said " I will adivise against it", as in giving them the pros and cons and showing them that the cons far outweigh the pros at this point.
You have to remeber that these kids were born and raised in Canada. Their lifestyle is already much much different than the lifestyle of most kids in Greece. Living permanently in Greece would be a cultural shock for them at this point. I was born and raised in Greece, yet I find it almost impossible to live there today after living abroad for a little bit over 10 years! There is no comparisson in the standard of living, opportunities etc.
Money is not everything, but for young people who want to have a chance to a career, Greece is a place with limited opportunities (except if your last name is Papandreou or Karamanlis and such...).
I would definitely consider to retire in Greece, and I always go back for vacations. Greece is, and will always be, my homeland. However, if you take the "sentimental factor" out of the equation one must be stupid to return to Greece permanently! (and yes, I know of many "stupid" people who did and either returned back to Canada since, or they're still in Greece crying about their choice...).
Saying all this...Most of us Greeks dream of eventually going back home, and I can't be any different. I would consider a move back home if I could be guaranteed a job that would offer a financial safe future for me and my family. However, since I know that this is an impossible dream I don't even want to entertain the thought of moving back and live my life like most Greeks abroad, dreaming for a day that will never come.
Quoted from jen, posted October 12th, 2007, 4:27pm at here
will dual citizenship ever be denied to second and third generaion Greeks?
As long as one of the parents is a Greek citizen (or dual Greek-Australian) then the kids can have dual citizenship as well. Ask your local embassy or consulate to make sure!
Gender: Male Location: Devil's Mother, Left Posts: 2,524
Reputation:75.00%
Well answered admin.
But allow me to throw a spanner in the woodpile.
firstly, the culture shock argument. You are born and bred Greek. Right? You went to Canada. Don't tell me that wasn't a bit of a culture shock as well. But you adapted. So will you kids, IF the decide to go back to Greece for a career or for whatever other reasons.
Secondly, What I find strange, and I bring forward "facts" according to my uncle who is in the shipping business in Greece, besides all the Albanians, Bularians, Roumanians, and the rest of the "-anians", there are many Germans, Frech Anglos, etc coming into the top jobs of the corporations/conglomerates. And my argument is HOW COME? Personally, i think maybe all the competent Greeks have booked out and there is nobody left
But seriously, there are plenty of opportunities everywhere. It all depends on what you are looking for. And what you are prepared to do for it. Yes Greece has its problems, and "business" is.....lets say different. I remember a scathing article I read in one of the Greek newspapers via internet, (I think it was Βήμα or Νεα) about the ridiculous difficulties of registering an new company - they had an example of an architect trying to start his own business, and 6 months later, many visits to the bureaucratic institutes, this license and that license, etc. He finally managed to open office. Royal pain in the a** how the civil service tries to justify their jobs (Eve seen or read Asterix - don't remεmber the episode but he had a wonderful dig at roman bureaucracy how appropriate: εμαιεσ οι Ρωμιοί). The point is he succeeded, despite the difficulties.
And then their is my uncle, now engulfed deeply into the corporate world. A Simle man straight out of the village, Did his dues on the high sees, travelled the world, reached to the point of commandeering huge tankers, and now delving with the hootie tootie. From where? Πειραιά.
The point is again. Opportunities are everywhere. even Greece. Again. I emphasize. Its what "you" want and what are you prepared to sacrifice.
Each person has that choice. Some succeed some not. some make further choices. eg. A cousin, who grew up part of his life in Africa, left Canada, an immigrated to Australia. Why? A Job offer. Now shackled and has a bundle of joy. And here is when the differences comes in. Once the little ones come in, a self imposed restriction comes into play. The roulette of life falls by the side, mostly for the benefit of the new team, the family unit, and self imposed restrictions come into play. Restrictions that allow us to "justify" our decisions. And that, i Think is why people, like you and me, find it difficult to "go back home".
On the other hand, we have to take te next generation into consideration. How often I see Greek parents, or at least the Greek parent in mixed marriages, not speaking to their kids in Greek, and hoping that Greek school will do the trick. (Big fat Greek wedding emphasized this element of the foreign Greek culture). What I'm saying is: saying that was is proudly greek, and living it and "passing on" that feeling....well... to say the least, is damn difficult. Some give up and integrate, others are stubborn arrogant mules, but most are somewhere in between
You can count me as one of the stubborn arrogant mules
My eldest son (he's 5 and a half) speaks Greek fluently, the other one (he's 2 and a half) doesn't talk much yet, but he's already started with many Greek words.
Gender: Male Location: Devil's Mother, Left Posts: 2,524
Reputation:75.00%
Now why do these words ring so true to my ears? Maybe they know something back home they don't want to share? he he he
but seriously. let me tell you a little story, that i personally witnessed.
Both parents second generation greeks. two sisters, pre-teens Sibling rivalry in full swing. Mother trying to keep her sanity, while controlling the situation. (all this in english by the way). At one point one child blurts out in anger, "she's got the devil in her", mother is horrified, and smacks the little one. "how dare you talk like that about your sister. Who taught you that? your friends ....yakka yakka.."
And I packed up laughing.
The mother got angry with me. THIS IS NOT A LAUGHING MATTER!!!!
Ok I said. When her papou said to you about your daughter "Εχει το διαολο μέσα της", (as in very active, bright, coming up with intriguing questions well above her age, .... or variations thereof, as we in Greece might use that expression), does that change your perspective of whats going on here?
She was stunned.
"Now start talking and being Greek a little more, and I walked off.
Appropriate? I don't know. But I think there is a lesson in this incident somehow.
Quoted from jen, posted October 16th, 2007, 6:05pm at here
as the saying goes --> we (outside Greece) live to work, Greeks in Greece work to live
This is not entirely true.
Most of my friends back home struggle to make a living (granted that most of them do not have an education other than high school).
Some of them have to work long hours, make very little money, spend very little - if any - time with their kids and wife, and their nights out with friends have become very limited. Whenever I go back home and visit them they're all asking me jokingly if I can take them with me to "America".
Sure, from where we are it seems that most people in Greece have a great life (the idealized Greece that I was talking about in a previous post...), but unfortunately the truth is very far from this in most cases.
I remeber when I was a kid that things were quite a bit different. I grew up in a blue collar neighborhood in Pirea. We were not poor by any means, and there was always plenty of food on the table, but we did not have much money to spare on "luxuries" either. However we did enjoy life and my parents made sure that every summer we would spend a month together vacationing in some island or seaside village somewhere in Greece. They would make sure to put aside enough money every year so this one month (or 2-3 weeks) would be a good experience for all of us, where we could have ice-cream everyday, eat out, and enjoy our summer vacation.
Very few people can do this in Greece today, only those who are well off. Life in Greece has changed to the worse for the average Greek. I know people in their late 30s who still live with their parents because they can't afford to live on their own! And things are getting worse as the years go by. When our parents generation (that still supports their kids financially!) goes then we'll see big troubles in Greek society.
I can see troubles coming in the next 15-20 years...
Gender: Male Location: Devil's Mother, Left Posts: 2,524
Reputation:75.00%
All you state is probably true, but my uestion is relative to what. My folks, in their wisdom, decided to book out to another country, while their brothers and sisters decided to stay. I would like to think that what you encountered in your childhood is a direct result of those who decided to stay. At the time of my folks emmigration, unemployement where high, and your arguments and sentiments you used above, where also repeated at the time.
Those who left acted according to there way of thinking, and those who stayed ... ditto.
If anything, using your experiences, i find myself thinking that maybe "another wave of emigration in the next 15-20 years, and more respective political 'turmoil'." History tends to repeat itself, often, and especially in Greece, very often, where a nation has a population that just can't "katsoun sta avga tous". Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing. Hell, we could almost say its a national characteristic. All I'm saying is, lets look at thing from all perspectives
(Hey admin, how about a smilie scratching its head)
Immigration worked for Greeks in the 60's and 70's for several reasons. Most people who left Greece at the time were people living in the countryside. People who at the time were working very hard at the fields and were getting very little in return.
So when they left Greece for the US, Canada, Australia or any other place, working hard again was natural to them. The only difference was that hard work in these places earned them way higher incomes and ultimately a better life.
Greeks today (especially Greeks in the cities) have lost this "appetite" for hard work. People in their 20s and 30s have learnt to have everything handed to them from their parents and grandparents without having to sweat. They majority of them haven't learnt to work hard to achieve anything.
The result being immigrants from Albania or other countries have swept Greece and with their hard work have managed to become succesful very fast in the expense of the lazy Greek younger generations.
Last time I visited Geece in 2004 I was amazed by the number of stores, appartments, houses etc. owned by Albanians, Chinese, Pakistanis etc. And I'm not saying this is a bad thing per se, these people worked hard in order to become succesful, I'm saying that it is a rather surprising turn of events never seen before in Greece.
As a result Xenophobia, which was something almost unheard of when was a kid (many many years ago...) is now rampant in Greece.
I honestly very much doubt that we'll have a new wave of Greeks leaving Greece for a better future elsewhere for the main reason that the majority of young people today in Greece have become soft and unwilling to work hard to succeed.
However, as it's always the case, Greeks always find ways to re-invent themselves and survive under most difficult circumstances. Hopefully we're going to make it this time as well.
Gender: Male Location: Devil's Mother, Left Posts: 2,524
Reputation:75.00%
Ouch!
But you are probably right about the "Greeks today (especially Greeks in the cities) have lost this "appetite" for hard work. People in their 20s and 30s have learnt to have everything handed to them from their parents and grandparents without having to sweat. They majority of them haven't learnt to work hard to achieve anything."
It would be interesting to hear from those still in greece on this
Min anisixeis, ekei pame ki emeis. Oi omades arsis baron itan oloi Albanoi kai Rossoi (an kai arketoi ap'aftous eixan pragmati Ellinikes rizes, kapoioi safos den eixan). Episis idi exoume 1-2 Albanous stin ethniki omada neon podosfairou.
Yparxoun ki alloi "ksenoi" stis omades mas. Nomizo oti i protathlitria ston akontismo Mirella Maniani einai episis Albanida ki episis eixa diabasi gia enan palaisti (Hliadis?) ton opoio episis kaname Ellina gia na symmetexei stous agones me ta xromata tis Elladas.
Ek ton pragmaton se liga xronia tha exoume Kinezous kai Pakistanous na forane to ethnosimo tis ethnikis. Den einai kako afto an afta ta paidia pragmati aisthanontai Ellines.
An rotas emena, ego pisteyo oti de genniesai mono Ellinas, alla ginesai kiolas.
Here in england being greek its somehow a good thing to be when you are looking for a job,i dont know why...we are not the most trustworthy country in the planet..but anyway being greek works fine if you have a phd or a good bio,espacially for banks and big insuarrance companys.for me now being greek means stuff but not as many patriots around my university...fu....ers...its ok that we have a history but some people think that is the most important..not in year 2007 though..
Gender: Male Location: Devil's Mother, Left Posts: 2,524
Reputation:75.00%
Because Greeks are not afraid to work hard, as opposed to those so predominantly there all being on the dole rather that earning a living, and then complain why we Greeks for example go places and achieve, while many years later.... they are still on the dole
Gender: Male Location: Devil's Mother, Left Posts: 2,524
Reputation:75.00%
Giati oloi stin Ellada psahnoun gia thessoula sto dimosio. Kai i plaka? Akoua sta nea sto elliniko kanali ena soro to eihan parapona oti stis ekloges tous iposhethikan douleies ala akoma tipota
Gender: Male Location: Devil's Mother, Left Posts: 2,524
Reputation:75.00%
Μπα δεν νομιζω. Οι Αλβανοι πανε στην Ελλαδα να δουλέψοθνε γιατι ο Ελληνας δεν θέλει να δουλέψει. μονο τσιγαρο πρέφε και καφε γνωρίζει. Τα καφενεία γεμάτα ολη μέρα. Και παραγωγή γιόκ.
Gender: Male Location: Devil's Mother, Left Posts: 2,524
Reputation:75.00%
Here is something that came through email from someone in Greece I was discussing this issue. I seems that it is pertinent to the question by Jen which gives give us some food for thought.
Οι Χλιδάνεργοι ζουν ανάμεσά μας.
Μια γενιά μορφωμένων Ελλήνων που ζουν με τους γονείς τους, βγαίνουν κάθε βράδι, δουλεύουν σποραδικά και για ψίχουλα, ταξιδεύουν, και τσακίζουν Prada, Fendi και LV όπου τα πετύχουν.
Η φίλη μου η Μαρία ήρθε και με βρήκε για πρώτη φορά τον περσινό Σεπτέμβριο. Λίγους μήνες νωρίτερα είχε επιστρέψει από την Αγγλία με το μεταπτυχιακό της, μετά είχε πάει τέσσερις μήνες διακοπές (στο Μπαλί, τη Μύκονο και τη Φλωρεντία), και τώρα είχε έρθει μαυρισμένη και έτοιμη να ξεκινήσει την καριέρα της, και μια νέα ζωή.
"Θέλω να μου βρεις δουλειά στην εταιρία σου", μου είπε με τον επιτακτικό τρόπο που λέει τα πάντα. Ήταν 26 χρονών.
Αν και είμαι εντελώς ακατάλληλος για τέτοιου είδους διαμεσολαβήσεις, μισάνθρωπος ων, σεβάστηκα το αίτημα της καλής φίλης, ρώτησα και έμαθα ότι πράγματι, υπήρχε μια ανοιχτή θέση στο διαφημιστικό τμήμα μιας εταιρίας για την οποία είχα κάνει κάποιες μεταφράσεις, προώθησα το βιογραφικό της και, ικανοποιημένος που έκανα το καλό για έναν συνάνθρωπο, το ξέχασα εντελώς.
Μετά από τρεις μέρες η Μαρία με πήρε τηλέφωνο, έξαλλη.
"Υποδοχή διαφήμισης; Η θέση που μου βρήκες είναι για υποδοχή διαφήμισης;"
"Ποιος; Τι; Ποιος είναι;" είπα (με είχε ξυπνήσει).
"Εγώ έχω κάνει μεταπτυχιακό στην Ιστορία της Τέχνης στο Λονδίνο και θα πάω να σηκώνω τηλέφωνα για 600 ευρώ;"
Τι είχε γίνει: Η Μαρία δεν είχε πάει στο ραντεβού. Όταν την πήραν τηλέφωνο για να την καλέσουν έμαθε όσα χρειαζόταν να μάθει, και απέρριψε τη δουλειά μονομιάς.
Η Μαρία, βλέπετε, ανήκει σε μια εντελώς νέα κατηγορία Ελλήνων. Πρόκειται για μια υποκατηγορία της διαβόητης «γενιάς των 700 ευρώ», των νεαρών Ελλήνων, δηλαδή, που έχουν αποκτήσει πολύ καλή μόρφωση, και οι οποίοι βγαίνουν σε μια αγορά εργασίας η οποία δεν τους πολυχρειάζεται, και έτσι δεν μπορεί να τους εξασφαλίσει μισθό αντίστοιχο των σπουδών τους, ή έστω επαρκή για να συντηρηθούν.
Η συγκεκριμένη υποκατηγορία της Μαρίας περιλαμβάνει τους νέους που, αν και δεν βρίσκουν μια καλοπληρωμένη δουλειά, αρνούνται να κάνουν οποιονδήποτε συμβιβασμό στον τρόπο ζωής τους. Μαθημένοι στο χαρτζιλίκι από τους γονείς κατά τη διάρκεια της εφηβείας και των σπουδών, βγαίνοντας στην «αγορά» εξακολουθούν να επιθυμούν να συχνάζουν στα ίδια μαγαζιά, να ψωνίζουν το ίδιο ακριβά προϊόντα, και να κάνουν ακριβώς την ίδια άνετη ζωή που έκαναν πριν.
Είναι οι χλιδάνεργοι, και δεν πρόκειται να θυσιάσουν ούτε την παραμικρή λεπτομέρεια απ' το lifestyle τους. Όσα κι αν τους πληρώνουν.
Σύμφωνα με μια έρευνα των Νέων, 8 στους 10 νεοπροσληφθέντες στην Ελλάδα αμείβονται με λιγότερα από 1000 ευρώ. Σύμφωνα με άλλη έρευνα της Marc για το Έθνος, τo 56% των Ελλήνων ηλικίας 18-30 αμείβεται με λιγότερα από 700 ευρώ το μήνα. Ένας στους δύο νέους είναι άνεργος.
Από τους τριαντάρηδες, μόνο το 29,5% ζουν εντελώς ανεξάρτητοι από τους γονείς.
Ένα 31,4% συντηρείται αποκλειστικά από αυτούς.
Μπορείτε να συλλάβετε αυτά τα νούμερα;
Αν κάποιος ξένος τα διαβάσει θα συμπεράνει πως είμαστε μια κοινωνία υπό κατάρρευση, όπου οι νέοι δεν μπορούν να παράγουν πλούτο, οπότε τρώνε τον πλούτο που έχει συσσωρεύσει η προηγούμενη γενιά, μέχρι αυτός να τελειώσει, οπότε προφανώς η χώρα μας θα χρεοκοπήσει.
Η ίδια η οικογένεια έχει τις μεγαλύτερες ευθύνες. Σε όλους τους Μεσογειακούς λαούς εμφανίζεται αυτή η απεριόριστη λατρεία για τα παιδιά, η οποία εύκολα παίρνει όχι-και-πολύ-υγιείς διαστάσεις. Οι γονείς ουσιαστικά «πληρώνουν» το παιδί για να μην τους φύγει. Σε άλλες, βορειότερες χώρες συνηθίζεται να το σουτάρουν (με αγάπη) μόλις τελειώσει το σχολείο, για να τραβήξει το δικό του δρόμο, να κάνει τα δικά του λάθη, να σταθεί στα δικά του πόδια, να μάθει και ωριμάσει. Εδώ έχουμε περιπτώσεις σαν το Θεσσαλονικιό φίλο μου το Στέλιο, που οι γονείς του υποσχέθηκαν αυτοκίνητο αν περάσει στις Πανελλήνιες, με τον όρο να περάσει σε σχολή της Θεσσαλονίκης.
Φυσικά, εκατοντάδες χιλιάδες είναι οι νέοι που ανήκουν στη «Γενιά των 700 ευρώ», όλων οι γονείς θέλουν να τους φροντίσουν, κάμποσοι από αυτούς τους γονείς είναι και ευκατάστατοι, αλλά δεν γίνονται όλα τα παιδιά χλιδάνεργοι.
Βλέπετε, είναι στη φύση του νέου να θέλει να αυτονομηθεί, να κάνει κάτι στηριγμένος στα δικά του ποδάρια, μόνος, ανεξάρτητος. Είναι μια ανθρώπινη ανάγκη αυτή. Στην πρώτη μου δουλειά προσελήφθην με μισθό 180.000 δραχμές το μήνα (520 ευρώ), εν έτει 2000, σε ηλικία 23 ετών, και ήμουν πανευτυχής. Εκστατικός. Ακόμα θυμάμαι το πρώτο ζευγάρι παπούτσια που πήρα με τα δικά μου λεφτά.
Μπορεί αυτό να ακούγεται λίγο «Βασιλάκης Καϊλας», αλλά η ανάγκη του ανθρώπου να κάνει πράγματα μόνος του -και κατά συνέπεια να αυτοεπιβεβαιωθεί ως αυτόνομη οντότητα- είναι πανίσχυρη.
Γιατί τότε τόσοι τριαντάρηδες καταπιέζουν αυτή την ανάγκη για να μείνουν στη σφιχτή και γεμάτη ασφάλεια αγκαλιά της τσέπης του μπαμπά;
Είναι απλό: Είναι αρρώστια.
Οι χλιδάνεργοι, περισσότερο από οτιδήποτε άλλο είναι lifestyle junkies, που επιτρέπουν τον εθισμό τους στην ηδονιστική πλευρά της ζωής, κι ας εγκλωβίζονται έτσι σε μια αέναη εφηβεία.
«Δεν μπορώ να μην ψωνίζω. Δεν γίνεται», λέει μια άλλη φίλη, ας την πούμε Πόπη. «Είναι εθισμός, πηγαίνω στο Mall και θέλω να κατεβάσω τα ράφια, να τα δοκιμάσω όλα, να δώσω την κάρτα μου και να τα πάρω σπίτι μου. Η ντουλάπα μου είναι γεμάτη με ρούχα που δεν φοράω ποτέ, αλλά δεν μπορώ να σταματήσω να αγοράζω διαρκώς καινούρια. Το τηλέφωνό μου στο σπίτι είναι μονίμως κατεβασμένο για να μην με πρήζουν από την τράπεζα -χρωστάω πολλά στην κάρτα. Έχω φεσώσει συγγενείς μέχρι και τρίτου βαθμού, το χαρτζιλίκι με το που το παίρνω φεύγει, ο μισθός το ίδιο».
Υπάρχουν πολλά πράγματα που μπορεί κανείς να καταλογίσει στην κοινωνία του υπερκαταναλωτισμού, και η ύπαρξη των χλιδάνεργων είναι ένα από αυτά. Αλλά δεν φταίνε οι τσάντες και τα παπούτσια αν η γυναίκα που τις ψωνίζει το κάνει με λεφτά που δεν έχει ή δεν έχει βγάλει με τον ιδρώτα της. Ο σφιχτός-όσο-δεν-παίρνει εναγκαλισμός της ελληνικής οικογένειας, που αρνείται να αφήσει τα παιδιά της να ωριμάσουν, δημιουργεί σε συνδυασμό με όλες τις χαρές του lifestyle αυτούς τους αιώνιους εφήβους που προτιμούν να ζήσουν σήμερα ό,τι έχει να τους προσφέρει η ζωή (ο μπαμπάς), παρά να ταλαιπωρηθούν για να το απολαύσουν αύριο.
Ως στάση ζωής αυτή δεν είναι απολύτως καταδικαστέα. Αναρωτιέται όμως κανείς, όταν ο μπαμπάς (ζωή) πάψει να παρέχει, τι θα καταναλώσει ο χλιδάνεργος; Και, ακόμα χειρότερα: Τι θα καταναλώσουν τα παιδιά του;
Προς το παρόν οι χλιδάνεργοι εξακολουθούν να βγαίνουν, να ψωνίζουν, να ταξιδεύουν, να πηγαίνουν σε interviews για δουλειές που δεν χρειάζονται, καθώς ο χρόνος περνά χωρίς συνέπειες. Θα έρθουν συνέπειες στο μέλλον; Έλα ντε.
Είδα τη Μαρία πρόσφατα, καλοντυμένη, αψεγάδιαστη, σε ακριβό εστιατόριο να τρώει με τον -πολύ μεγαλύτερο- φίλο της. Ήταν μια χαρά: Χαρούμενη, ξεκούραστη και, ενάμιση χρόνο μετά το τέλος των σπουδών της, ακόμα χλιδάνεργη.
Exei dikio opos ta leei o filos sou. Alla apo tin alli i katastasi stin Ellada se themata misthon einai AISXRH, kai se afto exei terastia eythyni to Elliniko kratos pou xaideyei edo kai dekaeties tous ergodotes.
Ki ego eixa problepsei edo kai polla xronia oti afti i katastasi ton "anergon" pou ta spane kathe Sabbatokyriako sta mpouzoukia i pou "pnigoun ton pono tous" kathe apogeymataki me ena frapedaki se kapoia kafeteria kapoia stigmi tha odigisei se xreokopia tin Ellada.
Pros to paron omos fainetai oti exo pesei poly ekso. Oi "xlidanergoi" opos tous apokalei o filos sou akoma diaskedazoun ti zoi tous, oi goneis akoma plironoun, ki i Ellada pote den pethainei!
Quoted from admin, posted October 12th, 2007, 11:32am at here
For us, first generation Greeks, Greece is a place we idealized after we left. It's like the "promised land" of the Jews. Only when we go back we discover that the "promised land" is really a desert that has little to offer.
Reading this interesting thread of the development of the Greek diaspora I have to add to your comment - even the "promised land" is a desert that has only a something to offer for the hungry and oppressed - for someone with a higher education and (northern-)European living standards it is sub-standard and nothing to long for.
Quoted from admin, posted October 17th, 2007, 8:29am at here
Very few people can do this in Greece today, only those who are well off. Life in Greece has changed to the worse for the average Greek. .... And things are getting worse as the years go by. When our parents generation (that still supports their kids financially!) goes then we'll see big troubles in Greek society.
I can see troubles coming in the next 15-20 years...
The prosperous years for Europe are coming to an end in general - I was of the last ones to get a free university education in Germany, if I wanted to start studies now, I could forget that dream because now higher education is to be paid for like in many other countries. And as for the big troubles - don't forget the Euro-introduction has damaged much of Europe's economy and when the rich countries are going down, people cut down on luxuries first and here it spells tourism and this is after the development of the last 30 years a disaster for Greece and it's neighboring sun- and fun-offering countries.
(Probably this post is totally off topic, so I apologize in advance.)
Although it has been a while since this thread was posted, I thought I still repply as this has been a big issue for me for a lot of years. In short, my dream of returning to Greece, has to a large degree, adversely affected my relationships, career and life in general.
As with Jen's comment ... "My concern is for the children i will have, i dont want them to be seen as Australian, thats my biggest fear" ... I felt similar for a lot of years and I dont think I'll ever be able to completely get over this. I admit it is quite selfish because overall it is the childrens happiness, health and education that is most importand.
It is not a good feeling not being able to realise your dream of being able to live and raise a family in Greece ... nothing to do with wealth, fame etc. I will always feel like a foreigner in Australia, although I do respect and love this country. Greece however makes it almost impossible.
I could write so much more on this topic, and will be happy to discuss this further if it also benefits others. I certaintly have benefited from reading all of the thread's comments.
I am somewhat releaved to find other people who share similar views/experiences.
I just got back from Greece about 3 weeks ago. I stayed there for a month. During this time I talked to a lot of people so I can sus out the situation and looked for any potential opportunities in Greece so I can stay there. But it is so hard ... I have lived in Australia for the past 16 years where I have learned to get around, professionally and personally. I found that in Greece I was completely lost ... no infrustructure, no base to start anything. Admittently I could have prepared a bit better for this move.
Anyway, it is a battle between the heart and the mind. I want to go to Greece but the smart thing is to stay here. Whats the right thing to do? I still think the heart is the best way to go forward but I now have ageing parents in Australia which makes my decision a lot harder. When I got back from Greece I thought to myself ... what are you doing??? f#@k it, go back and and do what you want to do, live how you want to live and disregard any financial consequenses etc ... work in a hotel or something just to get by till you get used of things ... and I would have done this if it wasn't for mother who nearly had a stroke when I told her. It is sad but I feel like a defeated man because I cannot live the way I want to. I was never the one to settle for something like this but I find myself out of options at this current time.
Once again, if I have kids, and I hope I do, I have to accept that they will be Australian and adopt the australian way of life, habits etc. You cannot impose nationality on your kids ... You will do more harm than good. Yes you will tell them about their roots etc but not impose. Overall they have to feel that they belong and are a part of the culture of the country they live in. Not like us.
I want to reiterate that I respect and love Australia, and I am greateful for the opportunities this country has given me, but once again, it is the way I feel and not an attack on Australia and its people. Hahahaha, it sounds like a disclaimer.
I hope to hear from you guys and listen to your stories.
I've made similar thoughts over the past few years. I was born and educated in Greece but have spent a significant amount of time away from home (12 years...).
I also seriously considered to return to Greece in a couple of occassions (in 2001 and 2004) but then after careful consideration I decided that it would be a completely irrational move.
The bottom line is that it depends what you have to lose and how much you really want this move. I have a great job here in Canada which allows me and my family to live a comfortable life. Add to this that my kids are now 7 and 4 years old and you get the full picture. If I would decide to make the move I believe that I would eventually be able to adjust again to the "Greek way of life". But for my Canadian wife and kids it would be impossible to leave a comfortable life here and live in the swealtering heat of Athens, with little parks to go and play, small appartments, narrow streets, no green, no backyards, smog etc. etc.
Other than my selfish longing to go "back home" I can find no other reason whatsoever to return to Greece.
Now in your case, if you're not married and have no dependents then it should be much easier to make the decision and go back. If this is what you really want, and you really don't have much to lose, then by all means go for it or else you'll be kicking yourself in the @ss for the rest of your life.
why is it that our parents found strength to leave their homes and loved ones (Greece) to come to a foreign land and make a new beginning, and we find it so hard to go back to our homeland? is it really the dollar that governs our decision? is this 'lifestyle sto exoteriko' so great that we fear to sacrifice?
Gender: Male Location: Devil's Mother, Left Posts: 2,524
Reputation:75.00%
its a little bit more complicated than that.....though we of the next generation sometimes look at it "romantically" for want of a better word
lets not forget WHEN these waves of parents shifted to the other ends of the world.
I don't think it was the "dollar" that was attracting them per say, but rather the circumstances that forced them to leave, overall
eg, the Smyrna catastrophe and its consequences,2nd world war, and the aftermath of civil war, ..... even.....the great earthquake in 53 i think, and many others.....all instigated "the final straw". In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the Junta years also "encouraged" many to leave......and in all cases, I reckon, there was a corresponding "begging for people" in various places throughout the world, States, Canada, Australia
Gender: Male Location: Naperville, IL USA Posts: 771
Reputation:75.00%
Quoted from eyoismos, posted March 16th, 2009, 4:37pm at here
its a little bit more complicated than that.....though we of the next generation sometimes look at it "romantically" for want of a better word
lets not forget WHEN these waves of parents shifted to the other ends of the world.
I don't think it was the "dollar" that was attracting them per say, but rather the circumstances that forced them to leave, overall
eg, the Smyrna catastrophe and its consequences,2nd world war, and the aftermath of civil war, ..... even.....the great earthquake in 53 i think, and many others.....all instigated "the final straw". In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the Junta years also "encouraged" many to leave......and in all cases, I reckon, there was a corresponding "begging for people" in various places throughout the world, States, Canada, Australia
It was the Junta that caused my dad to leave Greece. He was speaking up against it, and he got a warning from some friend cops, his friends payed him a visit, and told him: "Steve if I were you, I would be making plans to visit your sister in America, and I would plan to stay there for a long time". My father was involved in the import of arcade games from Germany, was from a well to do family, that owned a popular restaurant (were many of the cops ate lunch everyday), and he had little reason to leave the country.
The firstgenerations that went abroad did have very good reasons ... Junta, poverty etc. I think though that for most the intention was to stay only a few years, create some wealth and then move back home. A lot have done so. The main difference is that the past generations retined there ethnic identity and that of their childrens in most cases. The second and third generations though are loosing their ethnic identities and as time passes it will deteriorate further ... language, customs, way of life etc. I think that is what is concering us the most.
Also countries in the west were a lot more prosperous then they are now, the labour markets were different etc. It is more complicated now I believe.
The 'lifestyle sto exoteriko' is not so great. I think if you're well off in Greece lifestyle is a lot better. However sto exoteriko things like social order, career, health, eduation, govt departments etc are a lot better and therefore make life a bit more confortable.
I agree with you Admin that it will be somewhat irretional to move to Greece when you consider career, financial matters, opportunities for your children etc. But for me, the issue of losing my/my childrens ethnic identity will always be an issue. And lets face it, its a different feeling living in your mother country provided it doesnt make your life a living hell ... fakelakia or you die, unfair working conditions etc.
Prepi na ime poli poromenos, giati parola ta halia tis Elladas, ean iha kapos ikanopiitikes prooptikes, tha pigena. Hahaha.
Ki ego tha pigaina Theo, but I explain above why I find it hard to justify such a move.
Also, I don't think that it's a given that 2nd or 3rd generation Greeks lose their identity.
My older son, he's 7, is 100% fluent in Greek even though his mom is Canadian. On the other hand I know kids here whose parents are both Greeks from Greece and these kids can't speak a word of Greek.
Retaining the Greek identity then is dependent on many factors. Ultimately it lies with each kid. It's up to them if they want to retain it or not. As parents all we can do is make an effort to teach them as much as we can about who we are as Greek people. Teach them our language, our mythology, our history and our culture. Then it's up to them to take all this and make it theirs.
I remember a few years ago we took a driving trip to Vancouver. My oldest son was only 3 at the time but he was already fluent in Greek. So we're in a restaurant in a small town close to the Rockies having lunch. I was speaking Greek to him the whole time, as usual, and an old lady in the next table, probably in her 90s, turns around and goes "You must be Greek. I don't understand what you're saying but I remember the sound of these words. I remember my father talking to me in Greek when I was a kid".
Apparently her father had come to Canada in the early 1900s. He got married to a Canadian woman and moved out to that small town. Her father died when she was very young and she remembers very little of him. Even though she was obviously not Greek culturally (her mother was Canadian and later remarried to a Canadian guy) she identified herself to me as Greek that day. She said "I'm Greek like you". Then she asked to take a picture with my son and she was crying the whole time she was holding him. To her we were her connection to er heritage. A connection to her long lost father. It was a profound experience for me.
Over the years I've met a few people like her. Some in remote villages, some in big cities. All of them share the same passion about their Greek heritage even though most of us wouldn't consider these people Greek. These people don't speak Greek and they're disconnected from their Greek heritage for whatever reason. Yet, in my eyes they're more Greek that many Greeks who live in Greece today.
we have become creatures of habit... career, financial matters, opportunities for the children are all obstacles we place in our path...i wonder if we did move to Greece, would we be longing to come back to Australia, Canada etc... maybe we always want what we dont have?
That's true too. When you're in Greece Australia or Canada etc. looks like a great place to be. When you move there then Greece looks like a dream destination.
It's the human nature. We're always fonder of what we don't have.
I believe we are cretures of habit, but I think it is worth stepping out of the box to live life the way you want ... Out of your comfort zone. We must live our lives the way we want and not whats imposed on us.
Career, financial matters etc are a part of our life, however they dont mean much if there is not a greater purpose. For most, as for me, greater purpose is the welfare of family. When you consider the situation in Greece, I agree with admin that it is hard to justify the move to Greece. But this doesnt mean the there are no opportunities in Greece either. It may even be better. It really depends on the personal situation.
I know that if I was to move to Greece, which is still quite probable, I think I will long for Australia because of the better general conditions that exist in this country, and family, friends etc.
Wouldn't it be nice to have the financial freedom to eliminate all these obstacles and do whatever we like? Aaah Dreams? I suddently got an urge to buy lottery tickets. Although I do realise it is best achieving ... a bit of luck wouldn't go astray.
Hard work is what will make you realize your dreams.
If your dream is to go back to Greece then make this your primary goal and work hard towards making this come through.
When I decided to move to Canada I did exactly what you describe above. I had to step out of my comfort zone and do something "crazy". Then one thing led to the other, I put my life in order, met my wife, found a good job etc. and things went well for me.
I've taken many chances in my life, not all of them worked out ok, but I strongly believe that people need to take chances. This is what makes life interesting and worth living.
In my case, if I really wanted to go back to Greece I guess the "excuses" I've come up with (kids being comfortable here, good job, good life in Canada) wouldn't stop me. I guess in reality I may not really want to go back (yet!).
Who knows, one day the idea may mature in my head and make my move.
I agree with you that hard work is the best way to realise your dreams.
I think you are thinking of it maturely and thats why you are not unsettled and not willing to go to Greece. I believe the "ecxuses" you mentioned above are very good reasons for basing your decision. Why would you risk all that for a move to Greece? And as far as your kids are concerned it is best not to unsettle them either. My parents were going back and forth Greece-Australia and that really affected both me and my sister.
I remember I first got to AU when I was 8yo. My life in Greece was amazing, playing with the kids in the gitonia day and night etc. When we got to AU we were misserable becaue it was such a big change for us ... we didn't even know the language. I remember I used to write letters to my friends in Greece and give them to my mother to send them. At 15yo we went back to Greece. Once again it was very difficult to adjust but I did eventually and adopted the lifestyle of a Greek again. It was very hard in terms of education, language etc. At 19yo we got back to AU. Ante pali apo tin arhi. Once again it took a while to adjust. Eventually I did, made good fiends, completed Uni etc. But because I lived my best years in Greece, and adopted the Greek mentality (in a sense) I was always unsettled here.
Theo, if you really feel "unsettled" in Australia then this is probably a good indication that you're ready to take your chances and go back to Greece.
I hope the toppic is not closed,or "useless",or something else.... I,live in Greece,and i can "feel" all the other Greeks(arround the world). The only thing i do not "get" is how is it possible for many people to remain in their country(though the economic problems)(or the domestic economic problems that may occur...)having NOT any wills of migration..... I don't mean to be rude to anyone,but in my opinion,if economic issues appear that doesn't mean you move without a second chance.(third,fourth maybe....?)otherwise,Greece wouldn't exist anymore,or would not be consisted of original Greeks(no,i am not "Ellinaras",if you supossed so for me to be from the ones i write).Besides,if you can success abroad,why can't you just do it here?I admit my generation(i am almost 30)is a "lazy" one,but it's the one that will drive the country out of the crisis finally(so i don't think that someone can call me lazy)(i work more than all the other europeans,for less:insurance,money,no vacation,no "extras",less chances to live finally) AND THAT'S BECAUSE THERE'S NO S P A R E TIME,so i can do it....... Sorry to everyone if you got dissapointed,but that is the truth actually,MANY MILES away from the millionaire "ELITE",who drive expensive cars,has villas or palaces somewhere in Glyfada or Kolonaki in Athens,and spend their money to any garbage-at the same time other people may suffer,for euros..... and please,stop telling me that i created all this....cause from the day i was born,i listen to the same bullshit !(excuse me for the expression) thanks for reading.....what i wrote is completely real(at least about my conditions of living,and for another two hundred people i know) welcome to Greece!
Gender: Male Location: Devil's Mother, Left Posts: 2,524
Reputation:75.00%
let me throw the question back at you, musicenergy
do YOU have "any wills for migration"....considering you have been suffering as you put it
(and i mean that in a tongue in chek kind of way)
and where did you get the idea that we greeks of the diaspora think that all greek are lazy?
you are being very harsh on us and by the same token unfair
yes we often criticize the fact that "apergies" and marches is a national sport in greece......but at the same token, when those greek back home get offended by this characterization......oh how conveniently they forget who put them in that position.....yourselves
we didn't and still don't have the vote
alla perimene
10 ekatomiria stin ellada.... alla deka ekso
otan i ellada ipologisei tous ellines sto eksoteriko SAN ellines....tote...... tha deis polla
akoma kai tin epsitrofi pollon, me OLA ta epakoloutha
in the mean time we put up with the scorn we often get with labels as "amerikanakia", "Afstralezakia" "afrikanakia" ....kai ola ta alla "-akia".....but we all know, those in the diaspora.....those back home NEED us.....JUST as much as we need them
We are ONE.....and when BOTH "sides" realize this and accept this ..... "fovou ton Ellina!!!!!"
Quoted from eyoismos, posted July 30th, 2010, 6:11pm at here
let me throw the question back at you, musicenergy
do YOU have "any wills for migration"....considering you have been suffering as you put it
(and i mean that in a tongue in chek kind of way)
and where did you get the idea that we greeks of the diaspora think that all greek are lazy?
you are being very harsh on us and by the same token unfair
yes we often criticize the fact that "apergies" and marches is a national sport in greece......but at the same token, when those greek back home get offended by this characterization......oh how conveniently they forget who put them in that position.....yourselves
we didn't and still don't have the vote
alla perimene
10 ekatomiria stin ellada.... alla deka ekso
otan i ellada ipologisei tous ellines sto eksoteriko SAN ellines....tote...... tha deis polla
akoma kai tin epsitrofi pollon, me OLA ta epakoloutha
in the mean time we put up with the scorn we often get with labels as "amerikanakia", "Afstralezakia" "afrikanakia" ....kai ola ta alla "-akia".....but we all know, those in the diaspora.....those back home NEED us.....JUST as much as we need them
We are ONE.....and when BOTH "sides" realize this and accept this ..... "fovou ton Ellina!!!!!"
my FRIEND,believe me(because the followings are part of the REAL truth): i never faced anyone who comes to visit my country as "afstralaki","amerikanaki",or something like "aki"(it doesn't matter where he/she/ is from,POSO MALLON TOYS ELLINES TOY EKSOTERIKOY!!!)-MY presence in this forum can prove what i say. i don't think that the society faced anyone of you as a "xeno",when you come to Greece for holidays!(isa isa,i personally have a special feeling for all of you,abroad because i know VERY WELL that you can also be a "stranger" in your own f...country-and that's how i feel nowadays,having all these "governers" commit HUGE crimes on my back!) i am not responsible on how a government faces you(i ain't the government at all,if you can understand this!!!) about the strikes,BE 100% SURE,that it is impossible to "suffer"(as you understood that i wrote)and participate to a strike the same time(because the boss will fire you,without a second thought!) (sorry,didn't mean to put it that way-that "i suffer"-,cause i have a small piece of "filotimo" inside,and i don't like to "cry" myself,or look poor.if that was the picture you got though from my words above,i am terribly sorry,but it is TRUE!) the people who make the strikes,probably have reasons to do it. half of them,are going to loose earlier priviledges,the other half want just to make a comfussion for the country,and ONLY a small part want REALLY to protest against the typhoon of price rising and REAL social problems. On the other hand,put now the majority who want to work,produce,live..... i am terribly sorry if the media abroad show another "view" of the greek reality,but i never drove a mercedes,i have not million of euros in the bank,and i never participated on a strike myself. have a really good day,and don't be furius to judge.look a bit behind the vitrine,ask a few people you trust and they live here,and may be then you can have a better image of the currents.thank u.
Gender: Male Location: Devil's Mother, Left Posts: 2,524
Reputation:75.00%
oh i am very well aware of reality, unlike some who have not turned up their noses to where they came from (and believe me, there are a few - fortunately nowhere near the majority)
like i would automatically believe the garbage of thr "Anglo" controlled international media
seems you have grasped the wrong end of the stick of what we abroad percieve about the goings on back home but you quite adequately put it into perspective of what most of us away from home fully well know, and that is
Quoted Text
On the other hand,put now the majority who want to work,produce,live.....
as for the "-akia" reference....deep down in side.... you KNOW how many every day people look upon those greeks from abroad. hell.... i have experienced it myself, so i talk with the experience that "fate" has thrown at me, not once or twice, either
we wont go into "governments" and all that.....we ALL have experienced all their wrong doing, one way or another......but the fact is, those back home.......while we away......(fill in the gaps accordingly)
AGAIN....i would like to point out
10 million back home and another 10 "outside"
and when WE think in terms of "WE".......etc
THAT is one hell of a hurdle to overcome......from both ends of the spectrum
oh,be sure there are not any(black and white answers) (if i got your point well). i still cannot believe that many people behave the way you wrote to all of you. and yes i didn't answer your previews question straight(as i should)! so,the question was "if i have any wills of migration"(?) i thought of leaving this land when i was 25-26 years old,but not now.... why not (now)? because i know very well that THIS IS THE PLAN ! many years ago,a big politician in England(i think his name was Churchil-not sure if i spell the name well) said something like:"Greek nation is arrogant enough (because of our great past)for someone who will try to lead it"...."so what shall we do if we want to control them?,we should hit them on their history,religion,and EDUCATION of course so we can easily bit them". as you can see,half of his dream is already true....... they managed to "win" and they finally control us(specially the economic part-->see "troika").(but economy is just the beggining,right?).well done to everyone of us,we managed to get somewhere,where only a Greek could approach! i am not sure of how much i took part on the decision(not me,but all of us)when euro entered the Greek economy.i can't either remember if somebody asked me,if i want or not, at all!) anyway,i can't just give it away(not before i fight for it,like my grandparents did--their own way of course,cause now the "war" is in an "advanced" level). and that's how i see it.....it is like a video game,but the difference is that it's true,and don't like to live with ilussions.besides,if i go abroad,i don't think the comunity will give me a "hug",so "xenos" in my country,and "xenos" abroad....what's the difference? better money/conditions of life/better benefits?.... but that's always me,and i don't refer to anyone of you(never meant to be rude from the beggining*)(not a single second). i will repeat once again: i disagree with all the people who -may be- face the Greeks abroad like the way you described,but i don't think this is the majority. a whole nation who accepts many strangers already,is impossible to react like this,specially to Greeks(no matter where you currently live & act) i don't know where in the world you live my firend,but in case you want further contact,please feel free to send a pm,with your e-mail attached so we can keep in contact.and always if you need info or help,feel also free to do the same. have a good day all of you out there!
Gender: Male Location: Devil's Mother, Left Posts: 2,524
Reputation:75.00%
lets us at least start with some accuracy in what we say
Churchill NEVER said anything like that
but i would like to bring to the fore one of the many things he DID day
Quoted Text
"The farther backward you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see." - W.S. Churchill September 9, 1941
so.....pertaining to British politicians, .....looking back ..... they always said certain things that made us greeks feel good....but always stabbed us in the back, somehow. British politicians throughout history have proved to be ...... the greek word would be "ipouloi"
unlike most British citizens, at least the more educated ones..... byron comes to mind
coming back to the speech you where referring to....
Quoted Text
As reported in the popular Greek magazine, Oikonomikos Tachydromos on 14 Aug. l997, Henry Kissinger, while addressing a group of Washington, D.C. businessmen in Sept.1974, said:
The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame. For this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots: Perhaps then we can force them to conform. I mean, of course, to strike at their language, their religion, their cultural and historical reserves, so that we can neutralize their ability to develop, to distinguish themselves, or to prevail; thereby removing them as an obstacle to our strategically vital plans in the Balkans, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East.
which brings us back to the quote by Churchill, that i stated above
do we blame the Americans now?
if we are narrow minded and react blindly, then it is easy to do so
but if you take heed of what churchill said, and seriously think about it......
right through our history, or certainly after we became a nations, we greeks ourselves have a very nasty habit.....we blame everybody but ourselves for the woes that fall upon us. we blame our so called allies, be they west or east, but never ourselves
for example many blame the west for our civil war after "the big one", and interfering in our internal affairs, yet WE had the civil war, not them
we blame our allies for failing us in the Smirni camaign, yet WE decided to go for Ankyra, (instead of listening to our generals and rather go for Constantinople instead), and WE decided to change governments at the time, which only pissed of our allies in the first place
we blame the Americans for the Junta, but ultimately WE are the ones that imposed it on ourselves
the list goes on
which brings us back to the speech by kissinger. First of all he always denied it categorically, second it has never been proven, though most of us are very willing to believe it as true,,,,especially considering the recent developments in all the afore mentioned fronts
What i say is....it is irrelevant if he said it or not, BUT if he was to make a controversial speech, he should have just said...."we dont need to do anything....we can leave it up to the greek to f*ch things up all by themselves, All we have to do is never encourage them to become united.....for then we will all endure what the Persians did"
and that is the point
right throughout history, to this day, we all STILL live with the city-state mentality......be it sparta vs Athens..... or PASOK vs ND
but ignore the big picture.....HELLAS
and sad to say.....we STILL perpetuate history
so i repeat for all of us to remember....and SERIOUSLY think about it
Quoted Text
"The farther backward you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see." - W.S. Churchill September 9, 1941
correct in most of the things you wrote,but i disagree that we can look "further backward"...unless if i don't get the exact meaning of it.i am not a politician you know,so "translation" of a wooden political speech is not my "best part"(besides who cares about it if the game is always between pasok and nd,as you also correctly refered too!)and yes...it was Kissinger,as you correctly mentioned above.and no...i don't blame anyone but our governers(and maybe their support team-americans,germans and whoever else is helping or had helped them throughout the years) (................please inform me if i am wrong in this part*). but it seems i am not the only one who finally understands what is going on) (hopefully...). i still don't know how the comunity abroad(and i'd like to have an answer on this if you can please)behaves to Greeks who decide to leave the country.... but i'd like to have a REAL answer and not just an answer that would be "politically correct"(or one that should fit the "ocassion") have a good day from Greece!
Gender: Male Location: Devil's Mother, Left Posts: 2,524
Reputation:75.00%
I don't think i have quite understood your question
are you asking what we greek abroad think about greeks leaving home base, and "joining" us?
if so, at least from my experience, we tend to welcome them, and in a way understand why they left home, and generally help in one way or another, some a little, some a lot more.
but i will tell you this
we often, unfortunately, have the same sickness as those back home
ie. those "below" us, financially or otherwise, try and help to "bring up",,, but woe behold anybody who actually "dares" to surpass us, ....our ego kicks in, and we want to......"gremisei" them
a very sad affair
for we all, instead of pulling each other up, constantly want everybody else "below" us, all the while, when other REALLY surpass us, we get all proud and show off about "we the greeks...." and and all that.......in the mean time....between ourselves, its all "kous kous kous....kai xereis ti ekane afto kai afto)
diladi
ton ellina mporeis na ton vgaleis apo tin ellada.....alla tin ellada den mporeis na ton vgaleis apo ton ellina
hahahahha
ap' tin alli omos, kai pio sovari plevra,.....epeidi pragamato o ellinas den fovatai tin douleia, kai peftei me ta moutra tou gia na epitei......genika einai perizititos, pou leei o logos, kai tis perisoteres fores ehei megales epitihies
i diafora einai oti sto exoteriko.....o xenos kosmos ton "entharinei", popu leei o logos, alla distihos stin ellada, oi diafores kiveniseis....tou kovei ta podia tou kathenos me tin terasteia grafeiokratia, ta sihna anagaiafakelakia, kai oles oi alles m@lakies
pou me fernei stin kouventa gia ti mporoume na prosferoume atin ellada
prepei na katalavoume ena pragam oloi mas
alles oi anagkes tou xenitemenou kai alles tou "ntopiou". kai me aftin tin skepsi epanalamvano kano pou polloi antidrane askefta....den eimaste i lisi (etsi to akoune merikoi anoitoi" ....eimaste ena meros tis liseis
ti einai afto pou mas tin fernei sta akra me ta ntaraveria me tin ellada? to eipa pio pano san paradeigma....tin akraia grafeiokrateia
kirie....thelo na epistrepso stin ellada, kai na ependiso....i aplos thelo kati aplo pou dikaioume apolita, tin elliniki ithageia
kai mas stelnoun apo grafeio se grafeio, se allo grafeio, mas ta prizoun me anousies dikaiologies.....p.h. to grapto leei Helen, alla esi les eleni....dikastirio na bgei apofasi.....ase PARA polla para pola paradeigmata mporo na sou po, mono kai mono apo tis dikes mou empeiries......opote sto telos.....mas ktipa sto kefali kai leme polloi......"asihtir apo do here" kai ta paratame sto telos
kai ti thelo na po....dose mas tin psifo....kai ....theleis na mas diefkolineis......den xeroume kai den ehoume mathei me faklakia......an nai...oriste i psifos mas....an ohi.....de pate na gamitheite....vgazoume diko mas komma pou tha mas kanei tin diefkolinsi
tora tha mou peis .....ligo anoita ta les....ehouem pio polla sovara zitimata edo
kai ego apanto....eisai sigouros? kala....den ehei aganaktisei o idios o ellinas stin ellada me tetoia pou ehei rimaxei ton kosmo?
diavaze prin arketo kairo, gia kapoion arhitektona, pou ithele na arhisei mia dika tou mikri eteraiolula, etsi na vgalei to psomi tou, (prin merika hronia...sto vima an den kano lathos) kai tou vgalane to xidi....kai meta apo 6 mines akoma den mporese na arhisei o kakomoiris (den xreo ti egine sto telos....alla nomizo katalaves pou to pao)
na min ta plilogo (ase pou tosi ora mono logodiareia eho) opos eipa.....eimaste meros tis lisis.....eipame....10 ekatomiria eimaste kai emeis stin xeniteia......kai epeidi oi politikoi stin ellada den xreoun pos na mas damasoune EPEDEI den eimaste ekei......tous pianei fovos....den xeroun pos na mas antimetopisoune, gia na mas toupmaroune...EPEIDI telos panton ehoume megalosei kai ehoume ektethei se diaforetika dedomena tis "ellinikis pragmatikotitas"......kai hezontai na mas dosoune tin psifo.....dioti XEROUNE.....i doulevoune gia tin ELLADA.....i .... tha thaftoune apo ena kataklismo allo toson ellinon pou tha prosthetoun me aftous pou "doulevoune" tosa hronia
Gender: Male Location: Devil's Mother, Left Posts: 2,524
Reputation:75.00%
mia stigmi....giati leo signomi?
esi ta zitises.....esi ta elaves......hahahahhahaha
omos sta sovara....prepei kai na katalaveis tin pikra pollon pou toso epithimoun na epistrepsoun i akoma kai na dosoun to tlanto tous gia tin ellada.....kai mono sfalares ehoume faei me ton kairo
alla toso peismatarides eimaste gia to ti eimaste.....pou AKOMA lahtaroume kai latrvoume tin ellada, kai to kalo tis, to kalon ton ellinon ekei, kai to kalo ton ellinon edo
ean ekprosopis tin foni ton ellinon sto eksoteriko,ena eho na po.mporo kai vlepo mia megali psihi poy distihos "lipi" apo ti hora!(distihos!) gia tin grafeiokratia:min nomizeis oti emeis edo ta ehoyme ola sto heri mas(opos eipes me to paradeigma me ton arhitektona pio pano,poy ithele na ksekinisi tin eteria toy)eides loipon?! i idia antimetopisi einai kai gia oloys emas edo,min nomizeis oti eimaste kai poli diaforetika.... soy eipa kai pio prin: ksenos stin patrida moy,kai stin ellada ksenos (opos leei kai to tragoydi)....ego eite stin ellada zo,eite ekso na zoysa to idio pisteyo oti tha me antimetopizan oi governers.alloste,den iparhoyn pleon governers alla "stars". every country has it's own: in italy it is berluskoni,in france it is nicola sarkozi(feat carla bruney)(opos leme beyonce feat jenifer lopez....?). in Greece we have karamanlis feat papandreoy(it hasn't change for years.)it is always the same grey duet.but.......there's an end to everything...i hope. let's see...no,why don't we just f...ourselves/lifes working and seeing(i think that's a good option,because WE,"the blessed nation" should be bored of ourselves otherwise... about your answer on how the community abroad faces a greek who decides to leave Greece: i was sure that you would give this answer from the begining(and that's the reason i have asked*)o ellinas einai ellinas loipon,alla mesa stin psihi toy,ektos apo zilia kai fthono gia ton diplano toy poy paei forward apo ayton,iparhi kai i kali psihi.ayto einai i oysia,kai ohi na katigoroyme toys edo oti den sas theloyn. eho tin oikogeneia moy kai toys filoys moy edo,kai den me anagkazei kanenas na mpaino sto hellenism.to kano epeidi to thelo.kai kathe allos poy einai koinonika eyaisthitopoiimenos,to idio tha ekane pisteyo. prosopika me odigise edo i aporia moy sto pos zite kai skefteste eseis ekei ekso.ma den vlepo kammia megali diafora so far..... esto....den pirazei.kalimera apo tin patrida!
distihos "merikoi" nomizoun alloios kai vriskoun diafora proshimata
omos
e.... na katalaveis pos tavlepo me kati pou egrapsa apo kairo....
Quoted Text
Και όταν το μπουζούκι σε χαϊδέψει με την μελωδία του Οι Βυζαντινοί και οι αρχαίοι θεοί ενώνουν χέρια Με τους ήρωες του Αλβανικου μετώπου στην Πίνδο Για να χορέψουν συρτάκι στην παραλία της ιστορίας τον χρόνο Εορτάζουν ενα απλό γεύμα που μεταμορφώνεται σε αμβροσία Και το νερό μετατροπεί σε νέκταρ, της αιωνιότητας το δώρο Διότι ο Ελληνας αισθάνεται της Ζωής την εμπειρία Ο σπόρος του βαθιά φυτευμένος στο χώμα του πολιτισμού Το ελαιόδεντρο περιπλεγμένο, ξεσκισμένο και κατακαμμένο Αλλά η αγωνία της ανάπτυξής έχει ένα σκοπό Το λάδι ένα ελιξίριον στην ανθρώπινη ληθαργία
(isos omos na paraeimai "romantikos" ston tropo pou ta vlepo)
kai go stoys "romantikoys" aniko,fenetai,alla na eisai sigoyros,pos an ta kataferei ayti i hora,oi "romantikoi"poy eipes tha ehoyn valei ena megalo heri gia na ginei ayto! na eiste kala oloi ekei ekso,kai na kserete oti iparxoyn akoma anthropoi edo(ohi para polloi,alla iparhoyn!) K A L I M E R A!
i moysiki einai to hobby moy.distihos den mporo na soy po dimosia me ti asholoymai,alla an thes steile ena pm kai sizitame...katalavaineis pistevo(proseho gia na eho*)
I like this topic. The diffrence between us born outside greece and those born in greece is kinda funny. Now I speak for my self ofcourse but somehow i believe theres quite a few that feels the same way, Im born in Denmark both my parrents are greek, they came here back in the 60s for work, liked the country and stayed. Now ive been raised in a mix between Greek and Danish traditions. I was born with a greek citizenship. And Ive always been told, be proud of your roots, be proud of beeing greek, and all those "we are the best country" in the world stories Now I love Greece and im even considering to move there because im tired of Denmark and sometimes I dont really feel like i Belong here. So i just came home from Vacation, visiting the family in Saloniki kai Komotini, and what ive noticed is, me(us) that are born outside, thinks its a really great place and were proud of our roots etc. but many people ive spoken to that lives in Greece hate it. I mean taxi drivers trying to screw you over if they can, people becoming Greedy etc. Some of it might be due to the crysis, i know they are hit hard down there, but I just annoys me, and i kinda feel ashamed of peoples behavior down there. I think a country like Greece could learn alot from Denmark, such and unions helping unemployees, better tax systems and so on. Anyways I stil love my homeland, and im as ive pointed out several times now stil proud of beeing greek. I just wish there were more greeks in Denmark aswell, so i could get my self a greek girl
Now for the burning issue finding a Greek girl. Hers what you do. You go back to Greece find a Greek Girl and take her back home to Denmark. or if your up for the challenge stay in Greece.
hey what do you think of Princess Mary and good Aussie girl!!!! Do they really love her as they say......
Gender: Male Location: Devil's Mother, Left Posts: 2,524
Reputation:75.00%
so mastora....how big IS the greek community in Denmark?
by the way....I met a diplomat here in zambia, some time back, or should i say a husband of a Danish diplomat, and certainly all his two kids, 2 boys, spoke perfect greek....which was absolutely wonderful
have people generally become selfish? does no one sacrifice anything for their country anymore? we all search for a better way of life regardless of where its at
allow me to answer to all the above comments that "OPOIOS EINAI EKSO APO TO HORO,POLLA TRAGOYDIA KSEREI". i would say that i would love Denmark,IF the Danish i have met (coming here every summer for holidays)were not so rude,agressive and selfish....(this is not only my opinion*) you can say the same for "us" of course,but "WE" live here, we remain(it doesn't matter how hard it is)and it's different. What i'm trying to say is that all the countries have "good" and "bad" people,but try at least to focus(in case there's no other way to understand it)on the way of living and the conditions which are different(conditions,i don't make myself as you better know) I have met a lot of people from all over the world,who have admitted that taxi drivers is a special "nation" themselves,so let's not judge a whole country from just a behaviour(we are Greeks and it doesn't fit us....). About the comment above,the people did never quit(as you refer...). I would say the opossite actually(and i am not sure if "ksenoi"-don't mean you-could actually go on very far,under these circumstances)
so.it is better not to judge from a distance,away from this country and without the feeling that every day is a big question mark(in his job,life,family etc) if someone follows such this point of view,he can easily say,that all the other countries,are just in their own world,not understanding any of the things happening arround.(i only hope.these countries will never enter a similar situation....!) have a good day all of you out there!
by the way,if one's interested in the real opinion,just stay up to date(breaking news 24 hours/day + what real simple Greeks refer from every corner of Greece) http://tro-ma-ktiko.blogspot.com/ (the blogspot is not mine,and at the moment is no1 in clicks.....the point is,it became what it is--->see the visits it currently has,in lees than A WEEK!!) just stay tuned...............
Gender: Male Location: Devil's Mother, Left Posts: 2,524
Reputation:75.00%
as milisoume gia tin legomeni orgi
apo mia meria....ton tragiko thanato enos mikrou sta exarheia (pou tihainei kai nai itan epikentro narkotikon kai allon "kainourgion" paradasoeon stin ellada...kai olokliri i ellada paraligo na kaei
ap tin alli.....tria athoa atoma pirpolithikan se ena katastima trapezis kai ....den ginane polla pragamta....en sxesei me to parapano
as paroume kai mia akraia periptosi (kai ohi vevaia oute kan sigkrinomeni - aplos paradeigma)....oi opadoi tou panionou katastrepsan to idio tous to gipedo....mono kai mono na min paixei i AEK ekei
file mou, musicenergy, mou fainetai oti polloi ellines ehoun parapaixei to pouli tous kai den sevontai pia tipota....oute tous ipoloipous kata megali pleiopsifia ellines
AFTO ehei jatantisei i ellada....distihos
alla ego pairno MEGALO tharos apo, paradeigmatos hari, otan oi katoikoi enos meros sta exarheia, eipan ftanei pia, kai prospathoun na "paroun piso" tin geitonia tous, pou katalavainoun kai simponoun ta paidia pou ehoun ginei narkomaneis, kai prospathoun na ta voithisoun, afta pou theloun, toulahiston, na epanlethoun ston sosto dromo, alla oi ipolopoi, i legomeni lera, tous dihnoun me to esto thelo. AFTOI einai oi ellines.....pou den perimenoun ta panta apo tin ekastote kivernisi na tous ta dosoun ola sto piato. AFTOI, pou menoun se ekeini tin sinoikia, pou pernoun tis efthines tous kai kanoun kati, oso kai sigano kai argoporiko einai. AFTOI oi katoikoi einai pou tha sosoun tin Ellada.....opos kai oloi oi ekastote katoikoi tis kathe sinoikias,,,, kai eimai sigouros, HORIS AMFIVOLIA, oti einai parapolloi kai pantou se oli tin ellada. AFTOI einai oi ELLINES......AFTOI einai i pragmatikoi "omada epsilon"
na min poume kai tipota gia tin dolofonia kapoiou blogger opoia kai na einai i dikailogia (dithen)
kai ola afta ta leo mono sa paradeigma
iparhei orgi kai iparhei orgi
aftoi pou hrisimopoioun aftin tin legomeni orgi kai tin odigoune pros kati thetiko, dimiourgiko
kai einai aftoi pou tin ehoun tin orgi san diakiologitiko na katastrefoun ....alla sto telos nropiazoun ton kathe ellina.....eite sto esoteriko eite sto exoteriko - den ehei simasia pou
ta pragamata den einai etsi aplopoiimena, filtate musicenergy, toulahiston opos fainomenika ta parousiazeis
nai eheis apolito dikaio - "kakoi" iparhoun pantou......alla xereis kati......stous orheis mou gia to ti ginetai allou. Emena me endiaferei ti ginetai stin patrida....opos kai o kathe ellinas - kai tha sigkrino ego sto exoteriko.....opos - kai afto einai i pragmtiki alitheia - o elllinas stin mitera ellada thasigkrinei me ti ginetai se alles hores....pou sta xena meroi ipotithetai......kai ipogramizo ipotithetai oti i ekastote koinonia kai oi koinonikes sinallages metaxi politon, einai "pio politismeses"
kai edo einai o ponos......oti sigkrinoume tin ellada me allous......anti oi alles hores na sigkrinoun me emas
pios ftaei? EMEIS!!!! oloi mas sinologika....dioti to afisame na katantisei etsi.....kai ehoume tin anideia na prosferoume ton deikti tou heriou mas oti ftaine oi tade, oi opoiodipote tade pou pianei tis moda tis ekastote epohis i hronikou
ego thimame kati apo tin istoria......se mia fasi.....par' oligo emfilios stin konstantinoupoli epi epohis vizantiou.....plakothikan agria sto ippodromo oi prasinoi kai oi kokinoi kai oi galazioi (kala entaxei den thimame ta hromata me akriveia) kai i konstantinoupoli shedonm se floges
kai rotao.....ti diaferei "simera"? ti diaferei oi "diamahes" metaxi PASOK kai ND tosa hronia? ti diaferei tote me tora? edo giname rezili se ena filiko agona mpasket dioti i alitheia einai, kato apo tin "epidermida"......plakothikan "hromata"
trogomaste! einai ethiniko mas sport. eimaste apo tis pio arhaies "hores" pou leei o logos.....ma i mania sparti/athina sinehizei se fainomenika idia nootropia. kai to heirotero.....eimaste mono 20 ekatomiria - 10 mesa 10 ekso - meta apo hiliades hronia
ti perimenoume diladi? na mas epitethei mia persia, gia na valoume mialo? i perimenoume kanena alexandro na mas strosei me to etsi thelo, san ena omoousio kratos?
Quoted from eyoismos, posted August 25th, 2010, 7:55pm at here
as milisoume gia tin legomeni orgi
apo mia meria....ton tragiko thanato enos mikrou sta exarheia (pou tihainei kai nai itan epikentro narkotikon kai allon "kainourgion" paradasoeon stin ellada...kai olokliri i ellada paraligo na kaei
ap tin alli.....tria athoa atoma pirpolithikan se ena katastima trapezis kai ....den ginane polla pragamta....en sxesei me to parapano
as paroume kai mia akraia periptosi (kai ohi vevaia oute kan sigkrinomeni - aplos paradeigma)....oi opadoi tou panionou katastrepsan to idio tous to gipedo....mono kai mono na min paixei i AEK ekei
file mou, musicenergy, mou fainetai oti polloi ellines ehoun parapaixei to pouli tous kai den sevontai pia tipota....oute tous ipoloipous kata megali pleiopsifia ellines
AFTO ehei jatantisei i ellada....distihos
alla ego pairno MEGALO tharos apo, paradeigmatos hari, otan oi katoikoi enos meros sta exarheia, eipan ftanei pia, kai prospathoun na "paroun piso" tin geitonia tous, pou katalavainoun kai simponoun ta paidia pou ehoun ginei narkomaneis, kai prospathoun na ta voithisoun, afta pou theloun, toulahiston, na epanlethoun ston sosto dromo, alla oi ipolopoi, i legomeni lera, tous dihnoun me to esto thelo. AFTOI einai oi ellines.....pou den perimenoun ta panta apo tin ekastote kivernisi na tous ta dosoun ola sto piato. AFTOI, pou menoun se ekeini tin sinoikia, pou pernoun tis efthines tous kai kanoun kati, oso kai sigano kai argoporiko einai. AFTOI oi katoikoi einai pou tha sosoun tin Ellada.....opos kai oloi oi ekastote katoikoi tis kathe sinoikias,,,, kai eimai sigouros, HORIS AMFIVOLIA, oti einai parapolloi kai pantou se oli tin ellada. AFTOI einai oi ELLINES......AFTOI einai i pragmatikoi "omada epsilon"
na min poume kai tipota gia tin dolofonia kapoiou blogger opoia kai na einai i dikailogia (dithen)
kai ola afta ta leo mono sa paradeigma
iparhei orgi kai iparhei orgi
aftoi pou hrisimopoioun aftin tin legomeni orgi kai tin odigoune pros kati thetiko, dimiourgiko
kai einai aftoi pou tin ehoun tin orgi san diakiologitiko na katastrefoun ....alla sto telos nropiazoun ton kathe ellina.....eite sto esoteriko eite sto exoteriko - den ehei simasia pou
ta pragamata den einai etsi aplopoiimena, filtate musicenergy, toulahiston opos fainomenika ta parousiazeis
nai eheis apolito dikaio - "kakoi" iparhoun pantou......alla xereis kati......stous orheis mou gia to ti ginetai allou. Emena me endiaferei ti ginetai stin patrida....opos kai o kathe ellinas - kai tha sigkrino ego sto exoteriko.....opos - kai afto einai i pragmtiki alitheia - o elllinas stin mitera ellada thasigkrinei me ti ginetai se alles hores....pou sta xena meroi ipotithetai......kai ipogramizo ipotithetai oti i ekastote koinonia kai oi koinonikes sinallages metaxi politon, einai "pio politismeses"
kai edo einai o ponos......oti sigkrinoume tin ellada me allous......anti oi alles hores na sigkrinoun me emas
pios ftaei? EMEIS!!!! oloi mas sinologika....dioti to afisame na katantisei etsi.....kai ehoume tin anideia na prosferoume ton deikti tou heriou mas oti ftaine oi tade, oi opoiodipote tade pou pianei tis moda tis ekastote epohis i hronikou
ego thimame kati apo tin istoria......se mia fasi.....par' oligo emfilios stin konstantinoupoli epi epohis vizantiou.....plakothikan agria sto ippodromo oi prasinoi kai oi kokinoi kai oi galazioi (kala entaxei den thimame ta hromata me akriveia) kai i konstantinoupoli shedonm se floges
kai rotao.....ti diaferei "simera"? ti diaferei oi "diamahes" metaxi PASOK kai ND tosa hronia? ti diaferei tote me tora? edo giname rezili se ena filiko agona mpasket dioti i alitheia einai, kato apo tin "epidermida"......plakothikan "hromata"
trogomaste! einai ethiniko mas sport. eimaste apo tis pio arhaies "hores" pou leei o logos.....ma i mania sparti/athina sinehizei se fainomenika idia nootropia. kai to heirotero.....eimaste mono 20 ekatomiria - 10 mesa 10 ekso - meta apo hiliades hronia
ti perimenoume diladi? na mas epitethei mia persia, gia na valoume mialo? i perimenoume kanena alexandro na mas strosei me to etsi thelo, san ena omoousio kratos?
ti perimenoume?
mia hara ta les!kai simfono mazi soy.etsi skeftomai kai go,kai tha soy apantiso omos ena pragma,to opoio kai tha prepei na thimasai: PISTEVO 100% OTI AFTO POY PERIMENOYME EINAI PRAGMATIKA ENAS ALEKSANDROS....ALLIOS DEN EKSIGITE!! Ena igeti hriazete afti i hora,na tin odogisi ksana! pros to paron omos,den vlepo kanenan igeti na erhete.......kai AFTO einai poy me fovizei pio poly! na kano ipomoni kai na doylepso san skilos,mallon mporo na to kano,alla pios tha valei se taksi ola afta poy den mporo ego kai o kathenas aplos politis na ftiaksei? καλημερα σε ολους σας!
ΟΧΙ "ΔΥΣΤΥΧΩΣ",αλλα ΕΥΤΥΧΩΣ να λες που το καταλαβα....! απ'οτι φαινεται ομως,ειμαι απο τους λιγους...(ΕΔΩ ΚΟΛΑΕΙ ΤΟ ΔΥΣΤΥΧΩΣ....ΔΥΣΤΥΧΩΣ!) ΝΑ ΕΧΕΤΕ ΜΙΑ ΠΟΛΥ ΚΑΛΗ ΜΕΡΑ ! καλημερα απο Ελλαδα! επισης θα ηθελα ολοι να διαβασετε αυτο: http://tro-ma-ktiko.blogspot.com/2010/08/blog-post_491.html
Να μην τρεφουν αυταπάτες οι νεοι. Τα πράγματα στο εξωτερικό δεν είναι ρόδινα.
Αν έχουν σκοπό να δουλεύουν 10-12 ώρες τη μέρα για να κάνουν καριέρα τότε ας δοκιμάσουν την τυχη τους, αλλά επειδή ζω στο εξωτερικό εδώ και 14 σχεδόν χρόνια και ξέρω τα καλά και τα άσχημα (κι έχω περάσει πολύ δύσκολα όταν πρωτοέφυγα από την Ελλάδα...) θα σου πω ότι ο καθένας θα πρέπει να βάλει στη ζυγαριά από τη μια αυτό που λέμε "ποιότητα" ζωής κι από την άλλη την καριέρα του κλπ. Χρειάζεται να κρατάει κανείς ισοροπία σε αυτά τα δυο κι αυτό μπορεί να το κάνει κανείς τόσο στην Ελλάδα όσο και στο εξωτερικό.
Α, και κάτι άλλο. Στο εξωτερικό ανεβαίνουν στον αφρό όσοι αξίζει να είναι εκεί (ναι, υπάρχουν κι εξαιρέσεις στον κανόνα φυσικά...). Τα τούβλα συνήθως βουλιάζουν και πάνε στον πάτο.
παντα πιστευα και γω οτι μπορεις να κανεις τη διαφορα οπου και να 'σαι,ειτε στη χωρα σου ειτε εξω.απο την αλλη,αν διαβασεις καλα την ερευνα,υπαρχουν κι άλλα στοιχεια που προκυπτουν.ειμαι σιγουρος γι αυτο που λες(οτι τα τουβλα πανε στον πατο),αλλα σιγουρα οσοι δεν ειναι τουβλα,και οσοι δεν πανε στον πατο(και οσοι δουλευουν 12 ωρα)(οπως γινεται και εδω,αλλα χωρις τις αναλογες αμοιβες)τουλαχιστον εχουν ιταρικη περιθαλψη,και σιγουρα εχουν να περιμενουν μια συνταξη,καποτε! οχι οπως τον πατερα μου,που ειναι 70+ χρονων.....πηρε συνταξη 390 ευρω,και κρεμεται ακομα στη σκαλωσια για να κερδισει κατι εξτρα,και να μπορεσει να ζησει.... οπως και να το κανουμε,ολο και κατι διαφορετικο θα υπαρχει εκει εξω(δεν λεω πως θα ειναι και το καλυτερο,αλλα σιγουρα τετοια κακομοιρια που υπαρχει εδω,δεν νομιζω να ειναι το ιδιο εξω...) πολυ καλημερα σε ολους σας...... p.s.δεν βλεπω τον eyoismo πουθενα.....τι απεγινε?
Gender: Male Location: Devil's Mother, Left Posts: 2,524
Reputation:75.00%
hehehehe - me apothimises, vlepo
mia kai milmae gia touvla, kai epeidi eimai touvlo se afta ta themata...... mporei ne mou exigisei kaneis kati..... pos einai kai eimaste apo tous pio douleftrades laous....kai afto epivevaionetai kai apo statistikes tis evropis..... giati eimaste ao tous pio antiparagogikous laous
mou fainetai leipei kati
apo tin mia meria skeptomai..... kartella ergasias ehei sfragida enarkseis douleias ta ksimermata kai sfragida telous ergasias otan pesei pia o ilios.....kai endiafesa.....pollous kafedes,
ap tin alli skeptomai.....mpas kai ehoume ksehasei na doulevoume eksipna kai apodotika
kai milao fisika gia olo to spektro tis ideas "douleia" apo ton pio mikro kai ftoho ergati....mehri ekeinous pou "kathontai" ipotithetai afendades
Syntaksi eipes? Katse stin Ellada tote! Den yparxei syntaksi se Kanada - Ameriki. Sou dinoun mono kati psila meta ta 65. O pateras sou tha itan pronomiouxos syntaksiouxos edo me ta 390 Euro pou pairnei.
apantao ston fisherman tis pareas,oti isos na eimaste antiparagogikoi...ehi perasei kai apo to diko moy myalo kapies fores afto....! apo tin alli....na rotiso,giati den katalaba kala.....diladi oi anthropoi meta ta 65 pos zoyn ekei poy aneferes,an den iparxhoyn sintakseis...??? doyleyoyn mehri na pethanoyn?to "ponopsiho" amerikaniko kratos poy kanei koymanto se olo ton kosmo toys afini na pethanoyn stin psatha?(periergo moy fenetai!) kai mia diefkrinisi......den ethesa pote thema oti thelo na figo apo edo(apantisi sto "katse stin ellada tote") ohi...den to pira strava,apla mia diefkrinisi kano,gia na kseroyme kai ti "laloyme"(poy lene kai oi kiprioi....) kalimera loipon!(mia fora den tha sas petiho on line vre paidi moy?!)
και μιας και μιλησα για κυπρο,ας πω και ενα "περιεργο" που συμβαινει εκει στα ξενοδοχεια.... αν ζητησεις "wake up call" απο τη reception,σε καλουν στο δωματιο την ωρα που επιθυμεις,και μολις σηκωσεις το ακουστικο σου λενε "ΚΑΛΗΜΕΡΑ ! ΗΡΘΕΝ Η ΩΡΑΝ ΣΑΣ" (ωραιος τροπος να ξυπνας καποιον ε
Συνταξεις υπάρχουν αλλά στις περισσότερες περιπτώσεις είναι πολύ χαμηλές. Πολύ χαμηλοτερες απ΄ότι είναι στην Ευρώπη.
Εδώ ο κοσμος αποταμιεύει από νωρίς (όρος άγνωστος στην Ελλάδα...) για τα γηρατειά. Για παράδειγμα στον Καναδά έχουμε κάτι που λέγεται RRSP. Το κράτος σε αφήνει να επενδύεις ένα ποσό από το μισθό σου κάθε χρόνο κι έχεις φορολογικές διευκολύνσεις αν επενδύεις περισσότερα για τα γηρατειά σου.
Η νοοτροπία εδώ είναι ότι το κράτος δεν είναι υπεύθυνο να σε ταιζει στα γεράματα. Θα πάρεις μια βασική σύνταξη για τα βασικά, αλλά αν θέλεις να ζεις άνετα τότε θα πρέπει να μεριμνήσεις εσύ για να αποταμιεύσεις όταν είσαι νεος.
Στην Ευρώπη οι επόμενες γεννιές θα πληρώνουν για πολλά χρόνια τις πλούσιες συντάξεις που έπαιρναν οι παππούδες τους κι οι πατεράδες τους. Η συνταξιοδοτική φούσκα που έσκασε πρόσφατα στην Ελλάδα αργά ή γρήγορα θα σκάσει και σε άλλα Ευρωπαικά κράτη. Για πόσο ακόμα θα αντέξουν αυτές οι οικονομιες όταν ένας δουλέυει για να πληρώνει τις συντάξεις για τρεις?
Είναι και αυτό μια πληγή,δεν λέω..! Πάντως,καλό θα ήταν να τους ενημέρωνε καποιος αυτούς τους συνταξιούχους,ώστε να μην έτρεφαν φρούδες ελπίδες οτι το κράτος θα μεριμνούσε γι αυτούς έτσι?... επίσης,όταν κάποιος δουλεύει κάπου και ενα μεγάλο μέρος του μισθού του πηγαίνει σε "κρατήσεις" απο το κάθε ασφαλιστικό ταμείο,τότε θα πρέπει να περιμένει τουλάχιστον κάτι να πάρει στα γεράματα του,αλλιώς,γιατί να πληρώνει το Ι.Κ.Α και τα άλλα ταμεία και μάλιστα αδρά?! έξω,γίνεται το ίδιο? απορία το έχω!!!
hehe, well the danes kinda love Greece, as the country, but not us, they are kinda hostile in away against 3enous ^^ i mean im having a hard time getting a Job due to my last name, they often mistake me with turkish people or muslims in general because theres so many of them here, i mean most Danes dosnt even know we are Christian, and if they know that we are christians, they think we are catholic because they have a saying that goes, Im greek catholic (saying I dont care/ What ever).
Also I have the impression that an education like mine, Panel beater, or lamarinas autokinitou i think its called, is like a really low education, that dosnt pay any good, though here in denmark its one of the best paying craftmanship educations, we are talking like 4000 euro pre taxes, then we pay 48% every month. How we have loads of taxes here, you pay 180% taxes on cars, i bought a car for 10.000 danish cars, had to pay 20.000 in insurance for a year, 10.000 is like 1300 euro.....
And to the princess question, ye the royal stuff here in Denmark is kinda mixed up, on one side they are really proud of having the royal family on the other side they are dissing the queens husband because he is french, and diffrent stuff, i personaly say they should remove the family, no need to pay so much of our taxes to them since they dont really do much more than repressent Denmark.
But ye Admin thats not what i meant though I know they struggle to get by, but its like you go to greece, people like going out for coffee etc. How ever here, people get home from work, and all they care about is working working working, making more money, its like watching some of those New Yorker movies ^^ Theres no going out in the weekdays because its extremely expensive. So they go watch TV after work and if your lucky you can make them go out in the weekends, how ever id like to add that the young generation is fucked up here. Denmark should have the record for biggest use of alchohold in the age of 15-18. Many foregners watch to many movies aswell and think copenhagen is harlem so they are making gangs fighting for the drug market, we got people shoot almost every week latly -.- As i think ive mentioned, I like most of the danish system, we might be paying loads of taxes, but atleast everyone got healthcare (free) as long as your under 18 you dont pay for dental care. Schools are free, univercity, and the goverment even pays us alittle when you turn 18 while studying. If you cant pay for your bills, they even support you with alittle more cash so on. Or if your unemployed like I am, because the car industry dosnt really fuction here at the moment, im part of an union, so i get like 1000 euro a month to cover up my bills and even so i can go out once in a while. Guess i just miss some of the Greek spirit Oh ye and a thing Denmark needs is a panathinaikos Fan club trying to get tickets for Pao Barca and Copenhagen Barca is fucking impossible through they side it seems, Ps Sorry for the swear words
Quoted from musicenergy, posted September 3rd, 2010, 2:50pm at here
Είναι και αυτό μια πληγή,δεν λέω..! Πάντως,καλό θα ήταν να τους ενημέρωνε καποιος αυτούς τους συνταξιούχους,ώστε να μην έτρεφαν φρούδες ελπίδες οτι το κράτος θα μεριμνούσε γι αυτούς έτσι?... επίσης,όταν κάποιος δουλεύει κάπου και ενα μεγάλο μέρος του μισθού του πηγαίνει σε "κρατήσεις" απο το κάθε ασφαλιστικό ταμείο,τότε θα πρέπει να περιμένει τουλάχιστον κάτι να πάρει στα γεράματα του,αλλιώς,γιατί να πληρώνει το Ι.Κ.Α και τα άλλα ταμεία και μάλιστα αδρά?! έξω,γίνεται το ίδιο? απορία το έχω!!!
Ναι, το ίδιο είναι και χειρότερο. Εμένα μου κρατάνε σχεδόν το 40% του μισθού μου και θα πάρω ένα αρχίδι στα γεράματα.
Quoted from Zeus Mastoras, posted September 5th, 2010, 4:30am at here
But ye Admin thats not what i meant though I know they struggle to get by, but its like you go to greece, people like going out for coffee etc. How ever here, people get home from work, and all they care about is working working working, making more money, its like watching some of those New Yorker movies ^^ Theres no going out in the weekdays because its extremely expensive. So they go watch TV after work and if your lucky you can make them go out in the weekends, how ever id like to add that the young generation is fucked up here.
I think most people (anywhere in the world) don't understand very well the concept of "quality of life".
It's hard to compare the way of life of a fisherman on a remote island of Greece to that of an executive somewhere in western Europe or the US. What you can compare though is how "satisfied" is each one of us with their way of life.
Quoted from admin, posted September 5th, 2010, 1:58pm at here
Ναι, το ίδιο είναι και χειρότερο. Εμένα μου κρατάνε σχεδόν το 40% του μισθού μου και θα πάρω ένα αρχίδι στα γεράματα.
ΠΩΠΩ....!! ΑΝΤΕ ΒΡΕ,ΚΑΙ ΤΙ ΕΦΥΓΕΣ ΤΟΤΕ ΑΦΟΥ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΤΟΣΟ ΧΑΛΙΑ ΤΑ ΠΡΑΓΜΑΤΑ!ΜΑΖΕΥΤΑ ΚΑΙ ΓΥΡΝΑ !
ΕΜΕΙΣ ΠΑΛΙ ΠΟΥ ΘΑ ΠΑΡΟΥΜΕ ΤΑ ΤΡΙΑ ΤΟΥΣ ΕΔΩ....ΤΙ ΝΑ ΛΕΜΕ! ΑΝ ΚΑΙ ....ΑΝ ΕΙΧΑΝ ΚΑΘΟΛΟΥ(@@@δια),ΔΕΝ ΘΑ ΜΑΣ ΚΟΥΝΙΟΝΤΟΥΣΑΝ ΟΙ ΤΟΥΡΚΟΙ ΚΑΘΕ ΤΡΕΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΛΙΓΟ. ωστοσο....πολυ γκρινια βρε παιδι μου για τις συνταξεις.... κλαινε οι χηρες,αλλα να κλαινε και οι παντρεμενες....?!
Δε κλαίμε, απλά λέμε τα πράγματα όπως είναι. Οι ¶γγλοι έχουν μια παροιμία που λέει: The grass is always greener on the other side.
Αν ποτέ το φέρει η τύχη σου να φύγεις από την Ελλάδα και ζήσεις στο εξωτερικό θα αρχίσεις να λες "ρε τι ωραία που ήταν η ζωή στην Ελλάδα...". Όταν ζεις στην Ελλάδα νομίζεις ότι οπουδήποτε αλλού είναι καλύτερα από την Ελλάδα. Όταν ζεις μακρυά από την Ελλάδα τότε η Ελλάδα μεταμορφώνεται στο καλύτερο μέρος του κόσμου.
χμμ..... ναι,νομιζω ετσι ειναι..! γενικως αν δεν σε "βολευει" πουθενα,δεν προκειται πουθενα να βολευτεις!(αυτο το ειπα εγω και οχι οι Αγγλοι.. ) ...να σου πω παντως,οτι δεν με χαλαει η ζωη στην Ελλαδα(και αυτο ειναι που προσπαθω να εξηγησω εδω και κατι post away....) η ζωη μια χαρα ειναι!...εμεις την κανουμε δυσκολη τη ζωη των αλλων και κατ'επεκταση και τη δικη μας! παραθετω αυτο εδω,διοτι το θεωρω χαρακτηριστικο δειγμα του τι θα μπορουσε να συμβαινει στη χωρα μας. ..παρακαλω,διαβαστε με προσοχη.δεν το εγραψα εγω,αλλα πολυ θα ηθελα να το εχω γραψει! http://tro-ma-ktiko.blogspot.com/2010/09/blog-post_4461.html
Δε συμφωνω με πολλά απ'αυτα που λέει, αλλα έχει δίκιο σε ένα πράγμα. Ότι στον "αναπτυγμένο" κόσμο γίναμε υπερκαταναλωτικοί και μετράμε την ευτυχία μας και την ευημερία μας ανάλογα με τα αγαθά που έχουμε.
Κάποτε σαν πιτσιρικάς είχα 2 ζευγάρια παπούτσια, ένα που φορούσα κάθε μέρα στο σχολείο κι άλλο ένα που έιχα για "καλά" όταν πηγαίναμε σε καμμιά γιορτή κλπ. 2 ζευγάρια ήταν υπέραρκετα. Όταν "'ελιωνε" το ένα ή όταν δε μου έκανε πια παίρναμε καινούργια.
Σήμερα έχω (κι όχι μόνο εγώ φυσικά...) 20-30 ζευγάρια παπούτσια και πάλι δε μου φτάνουν. Καθε λίγο πάω κι αγοράζω κι άλλα.
Σαν πιτσιρικάς είχαμε στο σπίτι μας μια μικρη ασπρόμαυρη τηλεόραση 14" και δυο κανάλια, ΕΡΤ και ΥΕΝΕΔ. Σήμερα έχω στο σπίτι μου καλωδιακή τηλεόραση με όλα τα κανάλια που υπάρχουν (πάνω από 200) και πολλές φορές δε βρίσκω τίποτε που να με ενδιαφέρει αρκετά ώστε να κάτσω να το παρακολουθήσω.
Για να μην πολυλογώ, άλλαξε ο τρόπος που ζούμε. Κι αν υποθέσουμε ότι εγώ είμαι σε καλύτερη κατάσταση από τον μέσο καταναλωτή, ακόμα κι ο μέσος καταναλωτής μπορεί εύκολα να έχει ένα σωρό παπούτσια και κανάλια στην τηλεόραση χωρίς να θεωρείται "πλούσιος" ή ούτε καν προνομιούχος.
'Αλλαξε η ζωή του μέσου ανθρώπου (στις ανεπτυγμένες κοινωνίες) προς το καλύτερο από πλευράς πληθώρας αγαθών και υπηρεσιών που του παρέχονται αλλά την ίδια ώρα χάσαμε την επαφή μας με τα απλά πράγματα που κάνουν τη ζωή όμορφη.
Pages: 
Author
Greek Immigrants - So what does being Greek mean? 
Female
Logged
Male
, I know more than most people about Greek history, mythology and culture.
. The man was, to say the least very disappointed. But did he say "F Greece, I'm off" ? Well, yeah to the first part. He went to thessaloniki, joint the university hospital there, and changed it around to such an extent, that it is now held in very high esteem.
I just looooove fishing!!! Its all in the bait
